Demark is killing Tesla (Electric Cars)

[GreenJesus]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-electric-cars

Turns out that sales dropped 60% when they removed the government subsidy/tax break.. Whoops!

The figures suggest clean-energy vehicles still aren’t attractive enough to compete without some form of subsidy.

Denmark, a global leader in wind power whose own attempt at an electric car in the early 1980s famously flopped, used to be enthralled with them. Its bicycle-loving people bought 5,298 of them in 2015, more than double the amount sold that year in Italy, which has a population more than 10 times the size of Denmark's.

However, it turns out that those phenomenal sales figures had as much to do with convenience as with environmental concerns: electric car dealers were for a long time spared the jaw-dropping import tax of 180 percent that Denmark applies on vehicles fueled by a traditional combustion engine.

In the fall of 2015, the Liberal-led government of Prime Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen announced the progressive phasing out of tax breaks on electric cars, citing budget constraints and the desire to level the playing field.

Tesla, whose sales were skyrocketing at the time, lobbied against the move, with Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk warning during a visit to Copenhagen that sales would be hit.

The new tax regime "completely killed the market," Laerke Flader, head of the Danish Electric Car Alliance, said in a recent interview. "Price really matters."........
.......
While sales of low or zero emission cars continue to boom in neighboring Sweden thanks to a wide range of subsidies, including a five-year tax break and a 40,000 kronor ($4,600) purchase premium, the Danish government's U-turn has caused confusion, prompting many potential customers to either postpone or desist from their purchases.

Flader said electric car dealers have rolled back their sales drive as a result.

The electric car industry "doesn't want to invest in a market that may not be there next year. They'd rather invest where conditions are better and predictable long-term," Flader said.

[Azadina]

It's not all that surprising, when in many european countries it costs a doctors yearly salary (before taxes). There's no point for average workers to waste such amount of money into a car.

[Sunseeker]

Tesla's cars are expensive and people are always more willing to buy things when they're on sale.

[Independent voter]

They gave a tax break to jump start electric car sales, just not American electric car sales.

[Brubear]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-electric-cars

Turns out that sales dropped 60% when they removed the government subsidy/tax break.. Whoops!

There's also a huge push globally, but especially in places like Europe and the Northwest to move from car-based cities to bike/pedestrian-based cities.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...the-automobile

Yes, it's a Guardian link since it's the first one I found, but this is literally what my brother does (he travels to various cities/countries and assists them with urban development and this is something that places all over the world have been moving towards).

So the removal of the subsidies combined with it being in a region that is moving away from cars really isn't all that surprising.

[Ripster42]

60% in one country. Not killing tesla. Click bait is click bait.

[Ave07]

Maybe they realized how dumb it is to own a Tesla as of now.

[Deleted]

I kind of like this:

Its bicycle-loving people bought 5,298 of them in 2015, more than double the amount sold that year in Italy, which has a population more than 10 times the size of Denmark's.

So we are still buying about 4-5 times more Tesla than Italy that is ten times the size. But it is whatever, I always like how companies decry that they can't sell their stuff if they can't get all the special regulations or subsidies.

[Zmaniac17]

I don't think the Denmark market will kill Tesla. Anyways, buying a Tesla is just for supporting cleaner energy; you can think of it as a donation to an institute promoting green energy; the car itself is never worth the value you pay.

No brand new car is worth the value you pay for it. It loses 19% of it's value on average in the first year you own it. You're better off buying used. They are great cars though I wish I could justify buying one. But buying a brand new car isn't exactly good for the environment; electric or not.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe they realized how dumb it is to own a Tesla as of now.

I think the guy in this video really didn't do his research and is just trying to justify his choice. The whole thing about replacing the battery was pretty much bullshit. He had a few decent points, like obviously the price. Tesla only has luxury cars available right now though so if you're worried about price they aren't for you.

[ImpTaimer]

Tesla just wants a monopoly. They're even worse than Apple when it comes to third-party sales. Want to sell Tesla parts? Tesla owns your store.

Ontop of that they're selling you an overpriced vehicle with planned obsolescence. They know this and don't care. They want you to buy the brand, not the car. Tesla also refuses to lease cars (muh government subsidies) and still demands that they own purchased vehicles.

Denmark is dodging a nice monopoly bullet telling Tesla to fuck off and pay your taxes. Elon Musk is a virtue signally asshole who cares nothing about the environment or free market, just securing his monopoly.

[Protean]

That is right on. I agree 100%. You wanna help environment then buy old cars. Every new car costs resources and emissions to produce, by buying an old car you eliminate those completely. The thing is the new consumer market of "buying new" is hurting the environment big time. People never kept buying new appliances this frequently ... not much can be done about it though.

This isn't good though.


Old cars are really really bad. I know americans don't like hearing it but the safety/emission standards are abhorent.

It's not just about polution in the factory (which has also been reduced greatly), it's also about not killing pedestrians with toxic fumes as you drive by them. Or not killing them if you hit them. Or surviving when you get hit. Having marking lights that people can see so you don't get hit during low visibility.

And don't get me started on all the new extra equipment like warnings about lane changes, city-stops, better fuel efficiency.

Or even something as simple having a car that isn't rotting from the inside, rust is a big problem in Denmark's humid weather.



And finally, you need more new cars on the marked just to sell them used. Used or old cars don't just magically appear.


Old cars are really really really shitty.

[Zython]

Teslas are currently cost >$50,000, which puts them closer to the luxury car category. The more economic model (the Model 3) seems to have just started production this month.

[Masark]

Tesla also refuses to lease cars

Would you like to try that again?

[GreenJesus]

That is right on. I agree 100%. You wanna help environment then buy old cars. Every new car costs resources and emissions to produce, by buying an old car you eliminate those completely. The thing is the new consumer market of "buying new" is hurting the environment big time. People never kept buying new appliances this frequently ... not much can be done about it though.

My dad bought a nice jaguar XJ I think for 39k with only 3k miles on it and a year old when it is new 75k. Amazing how much value a car loses once it drives off the lot.

[Zmaniac17]

This isn't good though.


Old cars are really really bad. I know americans don't like hearing it but the safety/emission standards are abhorent.

It's not just about polution in the factory (which has also been reduced greatly), it's also about not killing pedestrians with toxic fumes as you drive by them. Or not killing them if you hit them. Or surviving when you get hit. Having marking lights that people can see so you don't get hit during low visibility.

And don't get me started on all the new extra equipment like warnings about lane changes, city-stops, better fuel efficiency.

Or even something as simple having a car that isn't rotting from the inside, rust is a big problem in Denmark's humid weather.



And finally, you need more new cars on the marked just to sell them used. Used or old cars don't just magically appear.


Old cars are really really really shitty.

I don't really disagree with anything you said here. I think it's important for this transition to happen. However, you're downplaying the impact of the creation of so many new cars. A reasonably priced used car is the smartest choice for most people. I look forward to the day when all cars are electric and I don't choke every time I get passed by a car on my bike. I think people who can afford it should be buying nice electric cars.

[einaschern]

No brand new car is worth the value you pay for it. It loses 19% of it's value on average in the first year you own it. You're better off buying used. They are great cars though I wish I could justify buying one. But buying a brand new car isn't exactly good for the environment; electric or not.

If you're going to own that new car for 3+ years, buying new is much, much better. There's this myth that buying used is smarter because of new car depreciation, which complete ignores the fact that your used car, in 3+ years, has depreciated much further and your loss is the same or more. Not to mention the average new 15-25k USD vehicle doesn't have that much markup, while any given used vehicle has a HUGE markup. You think you're doing fantastic buying that Camry for 12k, not realizing the dealer paid 7k for it.

- - - Updated - - -

Tesla just wants a monopoly. They're even worse than Apple when it comes to third-party sales. Want to sell Tesla parts? Tesla owns your store.

Ontop of that they're selling you an overpriced vehicle with planned obsolescence. They know this and don't care. They want you to buy the brand, not the car. Tesla also refuses to lease cars (muh government subsidies) and still demands that they own purchased vehicles.

Denmark is dodging a nice monopoly bullet telling Tesla to fuck off and pay your taxes. Elon Musk is a virtue signally asshole who cares nothing about the environment or free market, just securing his monopoly.

I can't buy burger king at mcdonalds. MUH MONOPOLY. How come I can't buy Reeboks at the Nike outlet? So much monopoly.
I do not think that word means what you think it means.

[Protean]

I don't really disagree with anything you said here. I think it's important for this transition to happen. However, you're downplaying the impact of the creation of so many new cars. A reasonably priced used car is the smartest choice for most people. I look forward to the day when all cars are electric and I don't choke every time I get passed by a car on my bike. I think people who can afford it should be buying nice electric cars.

I agree new cars too often is a problem. One very real problem is the micro and mini cars that flooded the marked a few years ago. It was a bad deal for buyers, it was a bad deal for dealerships, it's a worse deal now as used cars.


Not sure who thought it was a good idea to design cheap cars around a lifespan of 4 years, but every car we sold at our dealership we lost money. Litrally lost $240 per sale; we only made money if they bought extra things, signed up for plans etc. But most people buying those cars didn't want the luxury stuff and now we're stuck patching up shitty cars where brakes barely last a full service interval.



Thankfully in Denmark they made a slight change to how car taxation works so now it's size small cars and up that gets a tax break, we can sell something that is built to last again.

[Zmaniac17]

Tesla just wants a monopoly. They're even worse than Apple when it comes to third-party sales. Want to sell Tesla parts? Tesla owns your store.

Ontop of that they're selling you an overpriced vehicle with planned obsolescence. They know this and don't care. They want you to buy the brand, not the car. Tesla also refuses to lease cars (muh government subsidies) and still demands that they own purchased vehicles.

Denmark is dodging a nice monopoly bullet telling Tesla to fuck off and pay your taxes. Elon Musk is a virtue signally asshole who cares nothing about the environment or free market, just securing his monopoly.

If Tesla wanted a monopoly they wouldn't be open sourcing a lot of their designs and their stated goal wouldn't be to usher in a new age of renewable energy. Do you have some sources to cite for this claim?

[Deleted]

Turns out that sales dropped 60% when they removed the government subsidy/tax break.. Whoops!

or "Despite the abandonment of subsidy/tax break, the Danes still buy Tesla cars in quantity"

- - - Updated - - -

If Tesla wanted a monopoly they wouldn't be open sourcing a lot of their designs and their stated goal wouldn't be to usher in a new age of renewable energy. Do you have some sources to cite for this claim?

It will be interesting in the future to see if owners of a none-Tesla car can "refuel" on a Tesla supercharger station (for a resonable fee of course) If Tesla alow it they do not want a monopoly. If they make it Hard/Impossible then they use there wight to be a bully and want monopoly.

[Zmaniac17]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-electric-cars

Turns out that sales dropped 60% when they removed the government subsidy/tax break.. Whoops!

You might find this interesting as well. There's a bigger picture here. Tesla is crushing it in Norway. And so are electric cars in general. Half of all new cars sold in Norway are electric or hybrid. It shows how powerful government policy can be to encourage environmentally friendly activities.

The irony here is Norway runs almost exclusively on hydroelectricity; upwards of 95%. And it's paying for all this electric car infrastructure and subsidies with oil money. Oil that it sells to other countries. Oil that it doesn't need. So they're like the crack dealer who doesn't do drugs, but sells it to everyone else. I can hardly blame them. This is what the rest of the world has to do. They just have a huge head start on everyone. And other countries are not going to be able to sell their useless oil to pay for the transition if they wait to long.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a7615556.html