Blizzard killed Mythic+ dungeons.

[Puri]

Problem is that people with 890ilvl wanna do +15 keys it makes no sense. Its like if you wanna do TOS Mythic with that ilvl.

No, the problem is that TOS mythic drops 930 while +15 drops 910 (+ weekly chest). So it would be reasonable to assume +15 can be done with 895, which it really isn't.

[chronia]

Smells like you talk BS.. I wonder if you ever did M+9, and you talk about M+15 like is a walk in a park.

For the average M+ doing player a 15 will not be a walk in the park, esp in time. But for the weekly chest it should be aboslutely possible for the bulk of the players to get a 15 or close to it (it might take a few tries sure, but with endless keys now that should not be a issue). Esp this week since the affixes are really good this week, basicly if last week the best you could do was a 12 or 13, this week a 15 should be well within reach, possibly even higher as thats how much this weeks affixes are easier than last week. And the gear you can this week with the relatively easy affixes will help you in other weeks where the affixes are harder.

No, the problem is that TOS mythic drops 930 while +15 drops 910 (+ weekly chest). So it would be reasonable to assume +15 can be done with 895, which it really isn't.

For the average joe a +15 in 895 would be very hard to impossible in most cases, altough i would say this week it might actually be doable since none of the affixes are actually dangerous and its non tyrannical. The run probably wont be in time, but if you have a favorable dungeon key finishing it should be possible in a lowish ilvl grp if the players are competent.

I would say on more dangerous week 900 to 905 ilvl should be well doable for a 15 though again if the players are competent. You definately don't need 920 or something to finish a 15 unless you form a group where no one knows what to do.

[Puri]

For the average joe a +15 in 895 would be very hard to impossible in most cases, altough i would say this week it might actually be doable since none of the affixes are actually dangerous and its non tyrannical. The run probably wont be in time, but if you have a favorable dungeon key finishing it should be possible in a lowish ilvl grp if the players are competent.

I would say on more dangerous week 900 to 905 ilvl should be well doable for a 15 though again if the players are competent. You definately don't need 920 or something to finish a 15 unless you form a group where no one knows what to do.

Perhaps when you wear tier. Non-tier with only items from m+ I don't think any group will manage that with 895. But the problem is not only doing m+15, but you also have to reach m+15 in the first place, which would even be harder than finishing it at all.

[chronia]

Perhaps when you wear tier. Non-tier with only items from m+ I don't think any group will manage that with 895. But the problem is not only doing m+15, but you also have to reach m+15 in the first place, which would even be harder than finishing it at all.

Well sure, tier deffo helps and can be quite usefull, however i expect atleast most ppl that actually want to push for 15 for their weekly chest to have atleast some NH Heroic / Tomb Normal gear with some good M+ pieces or be ppl that have been running M+ exclusively since the start of the expansion and build up a quite optimised gearset trough that playstyle. I dont expect fresh alts in TF rel token gear to be wanting to push this in a grp of only alts as that might be a quite painfull experience.

[Puri]

Well sure, tier deffo helps and can be quite usefull, however i expect atleast most ppl that actually want to push for 15 for their weekly chest to have atleast some NH Heroic / Tomb Normal gear with some good M+ pieces or be ppl that have been running M+ exclusively since the start of the expansion and build up a quite optimised gearset trough that playstyle. I dont expect fresh alts in TF rel token gear to be wanting to push this in a grp of only alts as that might be a quite painfull experience.

Yes, but that's my point. When you are able to clear the dungeon, the loot the dungeon drops is already irrelevant for those clearing it (unless it procs, but that applies to everything). You only do it for your weekly chest, and not to directly equip someone.

[chronia]

Yes, but that's my point. When you are able to clear the dungeon, the loot the dungeon drops is already irrelevant for those clearing it (unless it procs, but that applies to everything). You only do it for your weekly chest, and not to directly equip someone.

Dont fully agree to that tough, players are between 900 and even 910 ilvl will have their ilvl inflated by Legendaries and Artifact, and thus quite some slots where possible 900-905-910 loot even without WF/TF procs can be upgrades. Even my 924 main has 3 non tier / legendary slots slots where i can still get upgrades from a +15 without WF/TF procs and on my 914 alt non tier / legendary 6 slots can still be upgraded with plain 900 between 910 loot.

[Puri]

Dont fully agree to that tough, players are between 900 and even 910 ilvl will have their ilvl inflated by Legendaries and Artifact, and thus quite some slots where possible 900-905-910 loot even without WF/TF procs can be upgrades. Even my 924 main has 3 non tier / legendary slots slots where i can still get upgrades from a +15 without WF/TF procs and on my 914 alt non tier / legendary 6 slots can still be upgraded with plain 900 between 910 loot.

Obviously there will always be slots that can grant upgrades. But not to fully equip a group. A raid is expected to be cleared with the previous raid gear, when it drops 910 you should expect it to be fully clearable with a raid that sports 895. But his rule does not apply to m+, the threshold is much closer to what acutally drops, or even above.

[chronia]

Obviously there will always be slots that can grant upgrades. But not to fully equip a group. A raid is expected to be cleared with the previous raid gear, when it drops 910 you should expect it to be fully clearable with a raid that sports 895. But his rule does not apply to m+, the threshold is much closer to what acutally drops, or even above.

I wonder if this still applies though, as i think tuning in general has been alot thigher lately in WoW than in previous expansions even on lower difficulties. As i don't think that the average heroic raiding guild will clear for example Tomb up to avatar in 900 ilvl or KJ in 910 ilvl or a normal guild doing the same in 885 gear. The first few bosses sure, but the later ones i don't see it happening unless you have worldclass players. I think in general this rule doesn't really apply anymore and that its not exclusive to M+ tuning but rather tuning in general.

[Puri]

I wonder if this still applies though, as i think tuning in general has been alot thigher lately in WoW than in previous expansions even on lower difficulties. As i don't think that the average heroic raiding guild will clear for example Tomb up to avatar in 900 ilvl or KJ in 910 ilvl. The first few bosses sure, but the later ones i don't see it happening unless you have worldclass players. I think in general this rule doesn't really apply anymore.

That's a fair question, and the wf/tf system especially in combination with m+ for sure were a gamechanger here.
But that doesn't mean it should not be tuned around that, because only that gives progression any sense.

[chronia]

That's a fair question, and the wf/tf system especially in combination with m+ for sure were a gamechanger here.
But that doesn't mean it should not be tuned around that, because only that gives progression any sense.

I don't know though, i feel that the tuning might be better now than it was previously. I mean if you can clear the new raid solely with gear from the previous raid on the same difficulty i don't think thats a good thing as it gives less feeling of progression when you only use the gear to farm faster, while now it actually gives more of a feeling of progression when you can kill for example the first 3 bosses relatively easy with previous raid gear from the same difficulty you are running, then for the next 3-4 you need a combination of old / new raid gear from the difficulty you are running, and lets say the last 2-3 are tuned around being mostly tuned around having either last tier gear from a difficulty higher than what you run currently or current tier gear from the difficulty you are running currently from the bosses you already killed. ]

I think they did this quite well this tier with KJ being tuned as a 10 ilvl higher boss and not dropping tier. So for example if your in a heroic guild you can work your way to KJ, get alot of gear during that including full tier sets on most if not everyone and then the KJ gear gives a slight advantage when stepping up to for example Mythic, or the next tier.

[ExtremelyCrusty]

WTB removal of flex bullshit.

[hulkgor]

Smells like you talk BS.. I wonder if you ever did M+9, and you talk about M+15 like is a walk in a park.

They are. The struggle is in high 18-20s now.

Feel free to check by yourself, that's my raider.io profile.

https://raider.io/characters/eu/aggr...gues/manglebot

[Rorixis]

Did a 15 today for weekly chest on wednesday.
I'm 925 ilvl but still got a necklace that is an upgrade as well as a relic for my affliction weapon. So I would say the system works just fine.
Just because your ilvl is over the ilvl of what drops (ie. 910) doesn't mean you can't get upgrades.

[apelsinjuice]

I wonder if this still applies though, as i think tuning in general has been alot thigher lately in WoW than in previous expansions even on lower difficulties. As i don't think that the average heroic raiding guild will clear for example Tomb up to avatar in 900 ilvl or KJ in 910 ilvl or a normal guild doing the same in 885 gear. The first few bosses sure, but the later ones i don't see it happening unless you have worldclass players. I think in general this rule doesn't really apply anymore and that its not exclusive to M+ tuning but rather tuning in general.

this for sure, no way the average normal/heroic raiding guild would be able to kill avatar/kj with about 15 ilvls below the base item drops, which used to be the case. Sure ilvl is inflated by legendaries/weapon but tuning now for sure have WF/TF in mind, which probably was not that case for EN which is why it was so easy.

[pseudoJ]

They are. The struggle is in high 18-20s now.

Feel free to check by yourself, that's my raider.io profile.

https://raider.io/characters/eu/aggr...gues/manglebot

I agree with you with the statement about +15 being *relatively* easy now -- however even though my rating is fairly lower than yours this season, I did my fair share of dungeons last season and I also have a decent (albeit worse compare to you) gear.

That said I feel like need a reality check since you are forgetting few things here

1) You are judging the difficulty as somebody in 928 ilvl gear (+15 drops 910)
2) You have HC/Mythic T20
3) You obviously run enough dungeons to be rankwise among top 500 dps in your region

It's like accomplished and fully geared mythic raider flexing at casual raiders that HC is too easy... actually I think it's a bit worse.

Frankly the idea of a group in 910-915 ilvl without at least normal mode tier sets doing Upper KZ on +14 with tyranical is kinda ridiculous. Even this week -- when such group likely could finish a +15 -- they would likely not be able to get a key to +15 (unless they get really lucky with keys).

While I like the concept of M+ I have to say that there are a huge issues with loot/difficulty balance.

[Puzzony]

They will not change the loot/difficulty balance to be on par. Why? Simply because it would make raiding worth much less, people would go to get their 4P tier and would get the remaining gear from dungeons, not to mention that a lot of dungeon trinkets scaled to raidloot ilvl are in fact better than the ones from ToS.

[BannedForViews]

No, the problem is that TOS mythic drops 930 while +15 drops 910 (+ weekly chest). So it would be reasonable to assume +15 can be done with 895, which it really isn't.

This is just false. M+ =/= raids. Because it is repeatable the reward is worse than the requirement, and you are essentially farming for titan forge. it is to create replayability. NEVER, EVER, in legion has anyone thought, or has blizzard conveyed, that m+ should be completed easily by people in lower ilvl than what drops from the dungeon.

[Shakou]

I agree with you with the statement about +15 being *relatively* easy now -- however even though my rating is fairly lower than yours this season, I did my fair share of dungeons last season and I also have a decent (albeit worse compare to you) gear.

That said I feel like need a reality check since you are forgetting few things here

1) You are judging the difficulty as somebody in 928 ilvl gear (+15 drops 910)
2) You have HC/Mythic T20
3) You obviously run enough dungeons to be rankwise among top 500 dps in your region

It's like accomplished and fully geared mythic raider flexing at casual raiders that HC is too easy... actually I think it's a bit worse.

Frankly the idea of a group in 910-915 ilvl without at least normal mode tier sets doing Upper KZ on +14 with tyranical is kinda ridiculous. Even this week -- when such group likely could finish a +15 -- they would likely not be able to get a key to +15 (unless they get really lucky with keys).

While I like the concept of M+ I have to say that there are a huge issues with loot/difficulty balance.

Yaaaa 15's were easy on my main right off the bat in 7.2.5, because I was already 920ish.

They are most definitely *not* easy for people that are not geared out and/or very experienced with m+. Of course it should already be trivial if you're pushing 930ish I lvl.

[Deleted]

Imo m+ was never worth the trouble. The item level is just SO low from the drops themselves. You need a high titanforge to somewhat compete with mythic raid loot.

It is however still a good source of loot for those that just want to spam it for just that. High titanforges.

The reworked key system is how it should have been from the very beginning. No longer does it feel necessary to look for 900+ people just for doing some sub-10 key to 3-chest it for higher chance on higher titanforges. You can just go with a group that is actually meant to clear this difficulty and still be fine.

(Still would never run more dungeons than needed for +15 because .. it is dungeons. They are not challenging, only stressful and/or boring.)

So no, imo they finally fixed the main problem on mythic+ keys.


EDIT: as others pointed out the difference in difficulty amongst those dungeons is pretty big though. Especially when paired with specific affixes. One can only hope that they improve the balance in power between the bosses, trash mobs and especially the impact of affixes on those.

[chronia]

Frankly the idea of a group in 910-915 ilvl without at least normal mode tier sets doing Upper KZ on +14 with tyranical is kinda ridiculous. Even this week -- when such group likely could finish a +15 -- they would likely not be able to get a key to +15 (unless they get really lucky with keys).

While I like the concept of M+ I have to say that there are a huge issues with loot/difficulty balance.

Why base the example on a dungeon thats clearly overtuned though, esp on Tyrannical. In general a decent to good group of players in the 900 to 910 ilvl range should be able to do 10's up to 15's with relative ease (Groups like that should be able to 2 chest lets say a 13, or possibly 3 chest a 12 and then run the 15 to complete, prob not in time, but hey it counts), esp if its not one of the 3 overtuned keystone dungeons (Lower / Upper Kara and Cath) but one of the dungeons that was available on release.

I mean i geared up my alt in a guild group with alts that were geared at the same level since 7.2.5 release from 90x (902 or 904 i think it was) up to 914 in Mostly M+, i think 2 tomb normal clears and 3-4 heroic bosses in total. And managed to get a key up to 15 each week and run the 15 (grevious weer was a pain though, will admit that).

Imo m+ was never worth the trouble. The item level is just SO low from the drops themselves. You need a high titanforge to somewhat compete with mythic raid loot.

I don't think M+ was ever planned to be a real competitor to Mythic raiding, if you look at the M+ system and the loot it dropped it always was competing with normal (lower key's) and heroic raids (highest keys), and only the weekly chest was giving Mythic ilvl gear. Which kind of makes sense, Mythic raiding stays at the pinnacle of WoW PVE, but ppl that cannot raid for whatever reason atleast have a progress path that gets them geared on a ilvl that competes with the ilvl Heroic raids drops with some Mythic raid grade pieces here and there from the weekly chest. And then the WF/TF lottery can get you some bonus pieces that can compete with mythic grade ilvl.