Frost DK Bottom Tier for ToS?

[Marx]

It's too early to gauge spec/class strength fully as people are still getting ToS gear, working out best talents, etc. As it stands all classes are pretty close in terms of dps. Mythic logs aren't very reliable, and if you look at heroic there is less than 10% difference in frost and unholy, which is probably larger due to the "best" players switching to unholy.

Unless you are competing at a high level just play what you enjoy.

[Saltysquidoon]

Does anyone else ever get sick of the;
"Just play what you like"
"It doesn't matter unless you're a mythic raider/top 1% of raiders/Top 100 guild"
"It's less then 10%" (Why do we have to accept an arbitrary number a dev made up years ago as an ok variance?)
"You'll get better numbers playing the spec you like" arguments?

Like it's ok to say one spec is better then the other even if you prefer it, I like unholy more but frost was better in EN and Nighthold, unholy's doing better on most fights in ToS and its ok to admit it.

[Onikaroshi]

Does anyone else ever get sick of the;
"Just play what you like"
"It doesn't matter unless you're a mythic raider/top 1% of raiders/Top 100 guild"
"It's less then 10%" (Why do we have to accept an arbitrary number a dev made up years ago as an ok variance?)
"You'll get better numbers playing the spec you like" arguments?

Like it's ok to say one spec is better then the other even if you prefer it, I like unholy more but frost was better in EN and Nighthold, unholy's doing better on most fights in ToS and its ok to admit it.

There's nothing wrong with "just play what you like" though, its a game and that's the biggest portion of it, playing what you like. There's no beating around the bush that X spec can put more dps out than Y spec, but why play X spec if you hate it. I didn't play frost in EN and NH, because I don't like frost.

[Saltysquidoon]

There's nothing wrong with "just play what you like" though, its a game and that's the biggest portion of it, playing what you like. There's no beating around the bush that X spec can put more dps out than Y spec, but why play X spec if you hate it. I didn't play frost in EN and NH, because I don't like frost.

The point of my post was a comment on the cognitive dissonance some people must feel to be incapable of actually verbalising the truth though so they cover it up with honeyed obfuscating words so they don't have to admit it to themselves.

Maybe it's because it's a topic that gets done ever patch for 13 years or maybe its because the concept of a forum itself is somewhat redundant in a world of guides, logs and wikis but it just seems pointless to me that a topic like 'Is the worst spec this tier the worst spec' gets 10 pages of heated debate when the answer is obvious.

[omegalulz]

Mirror Ball is obviously a cool trait, but it's absolutely not something big enough to justifiy a spot in ToS. A single personnal dispell is not going to change the encounter dude, like come on.

+ unholy also have very good defensives traits with AMS and IBF being more effective and AOE damage reduced. So they are both very on part of each other in this area.

I believe we also have more CC options with stuns

Wrong, you have a very good toolkit as Unholy with your pet bringing you a free stun, a hook or a ST stun. That's a big reason why Unholy is way more popular in arenas than frost pretty much no mater what.
On the other side, frost bring more AOE stuns. Again, both specs have pros and cons and they are on part CC wise.

Our AMS talent is superior to Unholy's

Wrong

I mean I don't even know what your point is, personnaly I just play and enjoy both spec and we all know that both specs have pros and cons. All i'm saying is Unholys fit more with ToS encounters than Frost, that's why you only see Unholy dks on mythic progression atm.

[Deleted]

Not true. Uh:frost ratio is 80:20 in mythic raiding. E.g. Sisters mythic has 43 unholy and 11 frost kills.

[Nangz]

The point of my post was a comment on the cognitive dissonance some people must feel to be incapable of actually verbalising the truth though so they cover it up with honeyed obfuscating words so they don't have to admit it to themselves.

Maybe it's because it's a topic that gets done ever patch for 13 years or maybe its because the concept of a forum itself is somewhat redundant in a world of guides, logs and wikis but it just seems pointless to me that a topic like 'Is the worst spec this tier the worst spec' gets 10 pages of heated debate when the answer is obvious.

Many times people say "just play what you like" when its close enough that you're not making or braking your group by playing what you want. Its just not typed out in full because its implied.

And your rant on forums is misguided. The entire purpose of having forms and these threads is spreading of knowledge. While YOU might not find them valuable, plenty of others do. Maybe they don't have the "obvious" information you seem to have.

[Marx]

@Saltysquidoon I never said unholy wasn't stronger, I said that the difference was small enough that it didn't matter which spec you played.

You realise that there will always be a "worst" class/spec? No matter how small the difference people will complain. (http://darklegacycomics.com/558)

Class balance at the moment is the best I have seen it in a long time; The statement "play what you enjoy" holds true and is justified.

FYI the start of EN saw unholy above frost and we went through the same posts on forum.

[Saltysquidoon]

My point is when johnny casual hops on the forums and makes a thread saying 'Hey guys what's the best dps spec because I can't be bothered taking 0.54 of a second to google a parse."
The first post should not be some moralising philosophical post about the nature of man and competition. There is a thread on the DK forums right now separate to this one where it took three posts and a response by the OP before they even got an answer.

FYI the start of EN saw unholy above frost and we went through the same posts on forum.

That's because apocalypse was massively front-loaded because its normal traits were better then the goldens, unholy started dropping off after the first week, frost also received multiple substantive buffs.
I fail to see the relevance of this point anyway, I never said don't discuss which spec is better if anything I promoted such discussion. In my opinion 'dude lmao you aren't method just play what you want' stifles more discussion about spec strength then it empowers.

[Marx]

Yes but OP never asked what is the best dps spec, he asked whether frost was bottom tier; which could be taken to mean nonviable/sub par. So to say that the difference is negligible is very much a relevant discussion point.

[Piz813]

Does anyone else ever get sick of the;
"Just play what you like"
"It doesn't matter unless you're a mythic raider/top 1% of raiders/Top 100 guild"
"It's less then 10%" (Why do we have to accept an arbitrary number a dev made up years ago as an ok variance?)
"You'll get better numbers playing the spec you like" arguments?

Like it's ok to say one spec is better then the other even if you prefer it, I like unholy more but frost was better in EN and Nighthold, unholy's doing better on most fights in ToS and its ok to admit it.

No. Play the way YOU LIKE

[RiB]

Removing the Armageddon rain debuff in order to soak more rains or just to free up one person's damage is very valuable for progression. Same goes with Goroth on mythic. The crashing comet debuff does a lot of damage per tick and I've been in situations where AMS' dispel effect saved my life and probably the life of somebody else since healers are now able to completely focus on somebody else's debuff instead of splitting healing trying to save two people who both end up dying.

Unholy can pop AMS before either one of those land and take 0 damage and get no debuff. Not sure if frost can do the same due the amount that can be absorbed. In unholy you can talent for 20% more damage absorbed along an additional 5 seconds. Unholy also gets 32% just from our artifact weapon in both AMS and icebound fortitude. Unholy also gets 20% less damage from AoE abilities. Frost can spec into 35% more damage in Volatile Shielding, but it is the worst talent in that tier. For example my unholy can absorb 2.1m at 10 seconds while my frost can only do 1.3m at 5. The extra 5 seconds means that it will last for an Armageddon hit and a singularity hit during the flying phase.

Mirror ball is good for things that are unpredictable such as the fel ejection on Star Augar, but for predictable things regular AMS should work fine.

[Baddok21]

for our Alliance DKs here does the Dwarf racial stoneform act the same way as Mirror Ball.

It says it removes Bleeds (mistress), Diseases, Poisons, Curses and Magic affects (i assume same effects Mirror ball does)

[RuneDK]

Still no frost buffs....while still early I would expect something by now....Frost is dead last at the 90th percentile(which is roughly all the good players). There's a lot of specs that need a buff too so I'm surprised they let it go this long without hotfixes.

While balancing as a whole for Legion has been good...So far balancing in ToS is hot garbage.

[SirReal]

Not true. Uh:frost ratio is 80:20 in mythic raiding. E.g. Sisters mythic has 43 unholy and 11 frost kills.

Why not just say 4:1.....

[Bisque]

Still no frost buffs....while still early I would expect something by now....Frost is dead last at the 90th percentile(which is roughly all the good players). There's a lot of specs that need a buff too so I'm surprised they let it go this long without hotfixes.

While balancing as a whole for Legion has been good...So far balancing in ToS is hot garbage.

I am surprised to. Id say if you don't see anything in the next 2 weeks, then blizz is CLEARLY saying that UH is the go to for this tier. Lets see what Arugs brings. Also while I do hope Frost gets buffed come Argus, I don't want UH to fall behind either. Id like to believe that blizz is capable of making all specs "playable" without dragging down the raid.

[RuneDK]

I am surprised to. Id say if you don't see anything in the next 2 weeks, then blizz is CLEARLY saying that UH is the go to for this tier. Lets see what Arugs brings. Also while I do hope Frost gets buffed come Argus, I don't want UH to fall behind either. Id like to believe that blizz is capable of making all specs "playable" without dragging down the raid.

Well, They are capable of that....you can raid as frost right now and not drag down your raid. I would like both specs to be closer in line similar to fury/arms though. One is top tier the other is on the lower end of the middle third. That to me is good balancing between specs. Especially given the legendary system.

[Nemesquish]

I love how the front page of MMO has a blue post talking about Feral having too dominate of talents in certain tiers....What a fucking joke blizzard has become rofl.

[RuneDK]

I love how the front page of MMO has a blue post talking about Feral having too dominate of talents in certain tiers....What a fucking joke blizzard has become rofl.

I thought the same thing.

[Wolvyn]

I love how the front page of MMO has a blue post talking about Feral having too dominate of talents in certain tiers....What a fucking joke blizzard has become rofl.

Yeah, and still absolutely zero mention of Frost in regards to the same issue or just number tuning in general.

I get that they don't have the manpower to fix all specs overnight but it seems that they have a serious resource allocation problem. First and foremost, the specs themselves need to be balanced and good to play. These are core gameplay issues that have been going on the entire xpac with no end in sight. Who gives a SHIT about twitter or a dance party when your spec has core issues that (still) need to be fixed?

Why even have talents that nobody takes? If they take the time to code them, create icons, animations, etc but in the end they're dogshit, it's a giant waste of time. How that can be left unfixed is absolutely mindblowing.