Potential buffs that could even us out

[Killface1]

Right now DH has mediocre to low ST damage and terrible AoE and cleave. Were not quite as bad as ww monks are, but were pretty fucking awful. People getting tier sets is actually going to make this problem worse, because ours is so lackluster compared to others.

Couple fixes they could make:

Revert bloodlet to 200% damage, or even buff it to 250% damage, while nerfing the bracers further (so that they're good, but not quite so mandatory)

Buff chaos cleave to 20% damage - doing either of these would probably make the new ring mandatory because we'd be getting so much damage out of that tier.

Revert all last minute changes they made on the PTR - buff dblades back to 100, buff tier set back to its previous levels of crit, and a reduction in fury cost for blade dance. Revert chaos blades to track mastery and be 12s.

Revert changes to blur to allow it to reset stacks of fel rush. Allow momentum to stack so that buff management wont fuck us whenever positioning is crucial.

Give us a flat 7-10% buff to all our abilities.

Any of these changes should alleviate the troubles demon hunters are facing.

They nerfed our burst and gave us nothing for sustained, and its lead to some pretty unsurprising results in nighthold logs.

Or the last option is for them to just leave us as we are and say "at least your not windwalker monks."

[yarafx1]

Right now DH has mediocre to low ST damage and terrible AoE and cleave. Were not quite as bad as ww monks are, but were pretty fucking awful. People getting tier sets is actually going to make this problem worse, because ours is so lackluster compared to others.

Couple fixes they could make:

Revert bloodlet to 200% damage, or even buff it to 250% damage, while nerfing the bracers further (so that they're good, but not quite so mandatory)

Buff chaos cleave to 20% damage - doing either of these would probably make the new ring mandatory because we'd be getting so much damage out of that tier.

Revert all last minute changes they made on the PTR - buff dblades back to 100, buff tier set back to its previous levels of crit, and a reduction in fury cost for blade dance. Revert chaos blades to track mastery and be 12s.

Revert changes to blur to allow it to reset stacks of fel rush. Allow momentum to stack so that buff management wont fuck us whenever positioning is crucial.

Give us a flat 7-10% buff to all our abilities.

Any of these changes should alleviate the troubles demon hunters are facing.

They nerfed our burst and gave us nothing for sustained, and its lead to some pretty unsurprising results in nighthold logs.

Or the last option is for them to just leave us as we are and say "at least your not windwalker monks."

Burst is still fine, even better with chaos blade changes. Our sustain is just piss though.

[Deix-EU]

I disagree a bit, they should redesign completely some things that doesn't work right now and didn't worked in the past for some reasons (especially getting def skills to get more dmg). They MUST find a way to make for a more dynamic key press style while getting benefit from Momentum / maybe VR uptime gameplay and blur is not the answer.

Working around synergies like Felblade or flatten out move animation from VR and even make some skills baseline would be very nice.

[xmr1]

The biggest problem is lack of cleave after bracer nerf. On pure single target we're still decent, but any fight that throws in a few adds and we fall way far behind.

[raivek]

The biggest problem is lack of cleave after bracer nerf. On pure single target we're still decent, but any fight that throws in a few adds and we fall way far behind.

Ridiculous part about that is I'm almost positive I had read Blizz's philosophy with legendaries is they wanted you switching out based on the fight instead of having one set the whole way through. Now we still keep the same ones on pretty much the whole way through.

[Svisalith]

Burst is still fine, even better with chaos blade changes. Our sustain is just piss though.

Right now the only really viable Havoc stuff is ST burst 1 trick pony regardless of the fight which falls short of being particularly impressive in its niche and fails to compete outside of that niche.

Other stuff has fallen out of playability due to direct or indirect nerfs. Blind fury - demonic appetite - demonic for example, that talent setup has seen a 50k DPS loss with tier 20 and will use the t19-4p until tier 21 releases; it was struggling to be useful in raids before and got considerably worse with the class and tier changes.

Stylistically some of these fights are great for it, great for other talent builds but the math just isn't there to use them.

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Stuff that i'd like to see would be more than just global damage changes because there are significant gameplay and diversity problems with Havoc, not just a numbers shortfall.

Going by warcraftlogs heroic data over 22k parses we see that ~96% of pulls across all bosses are using felblade demon blades chaos blades, 99% are using Nemesis and 84% are using First Blood, soon to become nearly 100% as Tier 20 locks it as the only talent in viability.

This is an RNG heavy ST-burst oriented playstyle that a huge amount of people don't neccesary enjoy or want to use for all fights in the raid but play it anyway because there is no other option - there was an almost universal outcry against the revert of the recent Demon Blades RNG-removal change.

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The tier 20 could be ammended to allow for bloodlet and/or chaos cleave choices to not be terrible and Soul of the Slayer could be buffed in stats (it has 65k DPS less crit/haste than Sephuz!) so that it's one of the better legendaries while allowing for expansion in that talent row.

Some tweaks to demon blades vs bite damage with the goals of making bite better & demon blades more consistent alongside flat damage increases to compensate and raise overall DPS should be a much needed improvement as well.

I don't think that reverting the t20 to be super OP would be a good solution. The issue that we have with t20 not being an upgrade isn't really because t20 is that bad, it's because t19 is really good as well and available at higher item levels than ever before; the t20 also locks you specifically into First Blood instead of buffing fury generation and chaos strike which buffed every style. We can't buff t20 to be way better than an awesome tier 19 set and then buff t21 to be way way better than t20 when that time comes, it'll just screw everything up.

Momentum is lacking at the moment, they have less fel rushes & less uptime than before - something simple like making the buff 5 seconds instead of 4 might be fun and enough to give it a serious boost without entirely displacing Nemesis from people who want to optimize every fight or use Nemesis for playstyle.


I think that a lot of people agree with these types of changes and more similar ones rather than an "all havoc abilities buffed by 5%" patch note, let me know how you feel about them

[Sarevokcz]

the issue of very lackluster aoe/cleave beyond EB/FotI really came to light, especially with the nerf to bracers, but its really hard to make changed NOW, that would make sense.

The main problem I think is the very limiting tier bonus, focusing purely on ST talent in FB + Blade dance, this prevents us to have any adjustments in the obvious department to help with our cleave/aoe issues, since it both blocks Blade Dance buffs for ST balance reason while also blocking us fro mhaving better cleaving options from the other two talents and I think Blizzard will have to think reaaaaaaaly hard about both why they didnt listen to DH feedback on PTR for months about the set bonus issues and the nerf to bracers.

the bracers could have easily be passive +80% to glaive damage with no "per target" bullshit, less abusable, overall nerf, but definitely a niche "cleave" legendary. instead they completely overnerfed it.

what I would LIKE to see is tier bonuses completely scrapped and new ones made as the first thing.

then second thing is BD redesign in one way or the other. The brute force solution would be to remove CD from Blade Dance completely and only get it when FB is selected
the more elegant solution is redesign Chaos Cleave, remove the CD from Blade Dance here and make it do 50% phys 50% chaos damage ( so our mastery buffs more than just eyebeam and felrush from our aoes), so the talent choices are more different, where Bloodlet would be standard 3-4 target cleave, First Blood would be the main ST talent and Chaos Cleave would be the AoE choice we desparately lack.

And god, do something about Fel Barrage, the spec is already RNG enough and the damage isnt even that impressive, it being on CD now because not enough resets is far more furstrating than previously having like only 3-4 charges instead of 5, you could have used it before for some aoe benefit, now youre stuck hoping it gets reset in time only to often reset after the mobs die and them you would rather sit on it before next mobs spawn because you know its not gonna get reset again...

honestly the only decent change was the Chaos Blades update... (and prepared, but momentum needs more help than that and the talent is clearly made with momentum in mind)

[sosleapy]

what i find funny is our stat priorities changed so maybe things are designed around that. most people i know are still with low haste and high mastery. Re do your gear to get better stat weights then we go from there. it is just 1 damn week lol people talking like end of the world and aint even stat'd out correctly for new patch. I for one have increased on dps by 150k per boss compaired to NH but i stopped worrying about mastery and am running 40% crit 18% haste and 22% mastery....

[Svisalith]

what i find funny is our stat priorities changed so maybe things are designed around that. most people i know are still with low haste and high mastery. Re do your gear to get better stat weights then we go from there. it is just 1 damn week lol people talking like end of the world and aint even stat'd out correctly for new patch. I for one have increased on dps by 150k per boss compaired to NH but i stopped worrying about mastery and am running 40% crit 18% haste and 22% mastery....

I'm around 47% crit (not counting the +8% from t19-4p) and 15% haste already, it won't change all that much since we still have crit as a super mainstat, haste/vers in the middle and mastery not that much worse than them.

Swapping 2k mastery to haste/vers for best secondaries layout would net an ST DPS increase in the range of 5-10k by my current sims; Swapping into crit is realistically not possible due to the extent that it's already being stacked.

t20 changes things up a little but it's like a half percent DPS gain for 2221311 and a 40k DPS loss for 331/332, it's mostly equipped for the ilvl.

[sosleapy]

I'm around 47% crit (not counting the +8% from t19-4p) and 15% haste already, it won't change all that much since we still have crit as a super mainstat, haste/vers in the middle and mastery not that much worse than them.

Swapping 2k mastery to haste/vers for best secondaries layout would net an ST DPS increase in the range of 5-10k by my current sims; Swapping into crit is realistically not possible due to the extent that it's already being stacked.

im speaking from my expierience my boss damage has increased 150k+, before patch i was at 600k ST now i am running 750k ST so idk other DH i talk to says his has stayed the same so idk. Im also toping dps over other people that was owning me before.

[yarafx1]

what i find funny is our stat priorities changed so maybe things are designed around that. most people i know are still with low haste and high mastery. Re do your gear to get better stat weights then we go from there. it is just 1 damn week lol people talking like end of the world and aint even stat'd out correctly for new patch. I for one have increased on dps by 150k per boss compaired to NH but i stopped worrying about mastery and am running 40% crit 18% haste and 22% mastery....

I'm 920, haste has been doing piss for me for dps. It will only be good once the tier set is equipped and even then seems meh. I've been pulling far better numbers sticking to crit/vers/agi/mastery haste. Haste is only really good to reduce the CD on Blade Dance. I don't notice any additional fury being generated with higher haste level's.

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im speaking from my expierience my boss damage has increased 150k+, before patch i was at 600k ST now i am running 750k ST so idk other DH i talk to says his has stayed the same so idk. Im also toping dps over other people that was owning me before.

I mean pure ST fight https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#boss=2032 the exact thing /only thing/ we are good at right now. We are mid pack. smh.

[Svisalith]

im speaking from my expierience my boss damage has increased 150k+, before patch i was at 600k ST now i am running 750k ST so idk other DH i talk to says his has stayed the same so idk. Im also toping dps over other people that was owning me before.

600k ST? I got ~750k krosus in patch 7.1.5 and around 1 mill ST in 7.2, pre-tomb

That sounds like you were poorly geared and/or playing wrongly before and have made improvements in those areas since.

[Occar]

The biggest problem is lack of cleave after bracer nerf. On pure single target we're still decent, but any fight that throws in a few adds and we fall way far behind.

Despite some of us having all the legendaries, they can't really balance around a specific legendary, so reducing it was the right thing (but they need to account for it elsewhere).

[Saverem]

im speaking from my expierience my boss damage has increased 150k+, before patch i was at 600k ST now i am running 750k ST so idk other DH i talk to says his has stayed the same so idk. Im also toping dps over other people that was owning me before.

600k DPS ST would put you at like 880-890 ilvl. I'm guessing DH aren't scaling well with gear, so the higher end DHs (910+) aren't doing as well compared to the other DPS classes.

[Occar]

600k DPS ST would put you at like 880-890 ilvl. I'm guessing DH aren't scaling well with gear, so the higher end DHs (910+) aren't doing as well compared to the other DPS classes.

You would be correct. Pre-7.2.5 I had stats that were scaling at almost 30 dps per point. Now my best stat scales at 26.5 dps per point and I am 3 ilvls higher. This is 906-910 ilvl range.

[Deleted]

I had a bm hunter 10/10 legendaries like 915 gear decided to level an alt dh.. got him 10 legendaries also and was doing fantastic dps at 906ilvl matching my hunter (at the time 909ish ilvl)

After NH last week and seeing myself fall from top to middle/low on tich/bota/spellblade i was already leaning back towards my hunter.. all this was due to bracers nerf

Then i did normal on both before the main raid.. Tos heavily favours ranged imo.. with Bm changes i can do ST rotation and cleave.. burst for 2m + rather then 3m ish on dh but my dh falls like a rock.. while Bm sustained dmg stays up.. far more up time on boss also

Bare in mind this is just normal.. didnt do hc on dh yet.. but no chance i see it mtching my hunter for mechanics and dps..

They need to revert the bracers asap.. ST is good.. aoe and cleave is beyond garbage

[sosleapy]

600k ST? I got ~750k krosus in patch 7.1.5 and around 1 mill ST in 7.2, pre-tomb

That sounds like you were poorly geared and/or playing wrongly before and have made improvements in those areas since.

i was at 893 itemelevel i was 895 entering raid. nothing has changed in my play style at all. still smash same buttons i just dropped mastery for more haste.

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Maybe because i was a lower ilevel coming up it is an increase but like i said the DH on my server i ask for advice is around 910ish and he said his dps stayed the same. no real changes.
Maybe i was running with not as good people but i was always top 4 on boss fights out of 20 people and these people outgear me the only class that was ahead was Hunters but not by much.
Im just speaking from my expierence. I am happy no real itemlevel change and i am pulling more dps last week normal raid i was constantly around 600k but now i am 700k+ so idk.

[Deleted]

I would say single target went up after patch but that was just nh were u could tunnel boss and cheese + most bosses died between 1.20 to 2.30mins..

Even then on stuff like bot/tich/spellblade and guldan my dps dropped 100-300k fter the bracers nerf.. we re seeing this now in tomb.. dh cleave/aoe is shit tier.. i am just happy i have a geared alternative

[Killface1]

I think my favorite buff that they could do would be a buff of bloodlet from 150% to 200%, and a buff of first blood on the secondary targets it hits. It'd make the bracers good again while not leaving other demon hunters fucked.

What they'll probably do is give us a 3% buff (if any) and tell us to eat a dick.

[Lucrece]

I would say single target went up after patch but that was just nh were u could tunnel boss and cheese + most bosses died between 1.20 to 2.30mins..

Even then on stuff like bot/tich/spellblade and guldan my dps dropped 100-300k fter the bracers nerf.. we re seeing this now in tomb.. dh cleave/aoe is shit tier.. i am just happy i have a geared alternative

Sustained cleave/aoe is bad, not burst. Eye Beam and fury of the illidari do their job just fine. Problem is they're too infrequent at their cd's for the many times we need to aoe.

They just need to make first blood baseline and revert the trait nerf it received early in the xpac, and make chaos blades baseline so we can actually choose demonic or fel barrage.

I also honestly think they should bake in Loramus Thalipedes legendary effect baseline onto fel rush and bump it to 10% per target. Change legendary feet to give an extra charge of fel rush and increase its damage by 10% flat.

Demnhunter is a class full of holes that you need to fill with competing talents. It needs a complete kit that is amplified by talents instead of needing talents to have a working kit at all.