ToS doesn't feel like a complete "full" raid.

[pseudoJ]

There is no compromise for what people are wanting, if you read the initial stuff, they want very difficult and challenging content, but they want it for the majority of players.

Those two points, counter eachother. You can't have difficult and challenging content, for a non-minority group, because most people aren't good enough to do it, and are unwilling to try once they know it's hard.

Say 30% of players do heroic now, and 10% do some sort of mythic, if you make heroic as difficult as mythic, look at that, the percent of players trying it, goes down drastically. And you're back to the original problem.

It's like asking for snow, but wanting it to not be cold.

Difficult content for majority of players will never work -- simply because majority of players is either not interest or not capable of doing difficult content. If all content is difficult it wont be interesting for larger portion of current player base => these players will stop paying => there wont be enough money to finance future development.

Difficult content for everyone is quite an elitist approach to the game design which frankly doesn't make any sense business wise.

[schwarzkopf]

I think MMO-C should start flagging obvious 'e-Peen' threads as such .... OMFG I'm so good I did 7/10 HC ToS first time.

Some dudes climbed Mt Everest ... must mean climbing Mt Everest is easy.

[Deleted]

I'm very disappointed about the dungeon. I miss orginality. I have awaited something bigger, remember we are talking about the tomb of sargeras, a very special place. The last boss is KJ, one of the biggest KILLAZ of the WoW universe. Its so unspectacular....

I hope blizzard is fooling us and KJ has a special secret phase (last phase under secure like the cinematic).

[kamuimac]

About gear - we were about 910+ ilv which almost everyone has nowadays.
.

no eveyrbody isnt

you made elitest group with crazy high itlv and claim that content was "easy" which is clear bs

you are just proving that you are troling for sake of trolling nothing else.

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I'm very disappointed about the dungeon. I miss orginality. I have awaited something bigger, remember we are talking about the tomb of sargeras, a very special place. The last boss is KJ, one of the biggest KILLAZ of the WoW universe. Its so unspectacular.....

its a computer game - it never was and it never will be spectacular

it was laways - nice & fun never anything more unless you live in your own virtual world.

[Ashkiman]

For 3% of the population. Woo, the fights are satisfying for 3% of the WoW population. No.

I personally find Heroic to be quite enjoyable, I'm just pointing out that saying that only Mythic matters is pretty silly considering how few people ever actually do Mythic.

It's really simple
HC is easy for you => do Mythic for harder bosses
HC is hard for you => keep trying until you beat it or switch to normal for easier bosses
Mythic is easy for you => well you're just too good for this game

[Beet]

Who cares about the people who aren't good enough to do content in its fullest? This is an mmo, it isn't for casual bad players.

What's wrong with content being at its best, for players who are willing to put in the time and effort? Honestly, you guys forget what an mmo is, you're too busy thinking about how you're so entitled to every area of content. It's because of you guys being so entitled to see the content, that heroic and lower can't be that hard.

If you guys were less entitled, the fights could really feel like true fights, and be harder. But then it would go back to being a small percent of players who can see it.

You want difficult fights that a large percent of players can see? It doesn't work like that. Because as soon as the fights are hard, the percent of players doing it, goes down.

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Heroic DOES pose a challenge, for players who are only good enough to do heroic.

Heroic should not pose a challenge for players geared enough for mythic nh / doing mythic nh.

I do agree that heroic ToS should be a little bit harder on some bosses than currently. Avatar being one that I was like "well.. that was easy" But I guess it's a dps check fight.

Hahaha dude you're speaking as if this was WoW 2004-2008. WoW quit being tailored to the hardcore playerbase years ago. Almost a decade ago.

[Emerald Archer]

Hahaha dude you're speaking as if this was WoW 2004-2008. WoW quit being tailored to the hardcore playerbase years ago. Almost a decade ago.

Some content, is tailored to the hardcore playerbase still. Plebs want that little bit of content changed to fit them, but I think one of the last "hardcore" bits of content left, should stay.

[khazmodan]

Just be thankful it has 9 bosses, originally blizzard planned on having 8. Maiden was sort of a last minute entry)

Actually, Blizzard should be thankful that there are still any people paying 15 dollars a month when they continue to make a game that asks the players to grind more than the fun in the game justifies. If there weren't so many people with investments of time and memories in an older more fun WoW, and social connections that have been going on for years, this game would be bankrupt long ago.

[Rawmac]

For 3% of the population. Woo, the fights are satisfying for 3% of the WoW population. No.

I personally find Heroic to be quite enjoyable, I'm just pointing out that saying that only Mythic matters is pretty silly considering how few people ever actually do Mythic.

He never said only Mythic matters, he said, don't come here moaning about how easy something is until you have beaten in it's full, intended format.

[Lord Pebbleton]

Can we stop talking about mythic like everyone runs it? It's pretty obvious that the sample of preference is heroic when it comes to raid, since that's the endgame for a lot of people. Mythic is just more health, more damage, and more tactics. If I ran the place on three difficulties (LFR, normal, heroic), I don't need another example to make my decision on how I feel about the raid.
It's like saying you didn't really finish The Witcher 3 because you ran it on Broken Bones instead of Death March, which is just e-peen stroking.

[BiggestNoob]

Mythic is just more health, more damage, and more tactics.

The difference is that anyone can do heroic and not anyone can do mythic. That's the point. It's not about "epeen stroking" it's about finding content that isn't piss easy designed for lobotomized retards who pretend like they're doing actual content when it was trivially cleared on the first day of release in worse gear than it drops while pretending that the harder difficulty is just the same except slightly harder.

It's like every other profession is only slightly more or different stuff to your chosen one, even if many are much harder and which you may be absolutely incapable of doing, but instead of actually understanding your own limitations and having a healthy understanding and outlook on life, you just say "no it's just different."

People like to pretend that mythic raiders are arrogant, but this kind of pretentious bullshit is one of the more arrogant things anyone might read on the subject. We're not arrogant because we have any pride at all in actual accomplishment, but you have no idea what this raid is like or any other because you have done a fraction of it and not a fraction that requires you to overcome literally any meaningful obstacle and yet you sit here and pretend like it's no big deal and there's nothing in there you haven't done. Hit a dictionary up, my friend.

[Dracullus]

Can we stop talking about mythic like everyone runs it? It's pretty obvious that the sample of preference is heroic when it comes to raid, since that's the endgame for a lot of people. Mythic is just more health, more damage, and more tactics. If I ran the place on three difficulties (LFR, normal, heroic), I don't need another example to make my decision on how I feel about the raid.
It's like saying you didn't really finish The Witcher 3 because you ran it on Broken Bones instead of Death March, which is just e-peen stroking.

(off topic) Actually, in my opinion playing Witcher 3 below Death March don't give you full experience. On DM you must change your tactic for every type on enemy, know their weakness, what bomb/oil/potion use, etc. - it feel more like role-playing witcher.

[Anjerith]

From a strategists point of view, the bosses in Tomb have got an absurd number of potential mechanics that are going on throughout their fights (well, except for 2 of them). But having said that, the fights themselves let you largely ignore the potential threat of some/many of these abilities and focus on 2-3 really do or die elements of the fights instead.


So I think that there was a HUGE element of caution on the devs minds when ToS was released. They may not have wanted to overwhelm the playerbase, which tbh will cry and complain about anything (look at this thread for example), so they undertuned the fights to compensate for the complexity of the encounters.

Since we are still waiting for mythic, it will be interesting to see if how that goes.

But, no, just because people are overgearing the content on release does not make it less than a "full" raid. It's a great looking zone with a lot of bosses that can do interesting things. Those are the only criteria for a "full raid".

[Kudos]

If you can't/won't do mythic, that's on you, but that's where the real fights are.

That's my guild. We were clearing Nighthold HC in about 70 minutes a week. We got bored and stopped raiding. Now we barely have a raid group for ToS. We were never interested in recruiting to have a roster over 20 for Mythic and we lost players to boredom. I dare say we're not alone in this regard.

[Fleckens]

No. People just read/watched the tactics, and once you know what to do this raid is piss easy. I was watching movies on TV half the time while healing the raid.

I've cleared 6/9HC bosses today again (to roll coins) with another pug from LFR. We were 12 people who knew what we were doing.

The bigger the raid, the more chance you will fail, because retards without a clue join PUG raids and expect to be carried.

About gear - we were about 910+ ilv which almost everyone has nowadays.

I did go through a few "Mistress" LFR pugs that fell apart cause people had no idea what to do. Then just formed a fresh raid with people who knew tactics and cleared 6/9HC in under 2 hrs.

I find this raid easier than Nighthold Citadel. Easy tactics, fast fights, short instance overall. Though raid design and fights look pretty.


Update: couldn't sleep so i fired up wow and joined the first Maiden of Vigilance HC group from LFR. Killed her in 1 try. I spent 2 mins reading journal tactics. There is NOTHING hard about that fight at all. (switch sides / jump down with bombs). You people are either bad or over-dramatic. NH HC was harder.


And this is a first try on the Avatar with a random LFG pug:



Easy as hell, just a gear check for DPS. EDIT: killed him on 3rd Try. I dont get what all the fuss is about.

Assuming you're actually telling the truth which I'm still doubting, I wonder if it's just much easier tuned with low amounts of players as both maiden and fallen avatar did give us a few wipes with our 30 man group of 25 people of half main/split alts and 5 socials, maiden mostly due to losing people on the hammer, some of our less geared players just got outright 1 shot even with everyone stacking if they didn't use a cooldown.

Where as nighthold we just 1 shot almost everything and found extremely easy on heroic outside of gul'dan, but even he didn't take more than 5-6 tries.

[Emerald Archer]

That's my guild. We were clearing Nighthold HC in about 70 minutes a week. We got bored and stopped raiding. Now we barely have a raid group for ToS. We were never interested in recruiting to have a roster over 20 for Mythic and we lost players to boredom. I dare say we're not alone in this regard.

Cool, so you've decided to not do content that's available to you. That's your choice.

[pansertjald]

TOS might be a cake walk for some, but for some realms it really is not Wowprogress pve EU connected stormrage/

[shaunika123]

For 3% of the population. Woo, the fights are satisfying for 3% of the WoW population. No.

I personally find Heroic to be quite enjoyable, I'm just pointing out that saying that only Mythic matters is pretty silly considering how few people ever actually do Mythic.

most of that 97% wont whine about heroic being too easy

if heroic is too easy for you go mythic, and be part of that 3%
if it's not too easy then dont whine about it.

quite simple really

plus OP didnt even kill KJ(who btw only died to 176 guilds, most of whom are mythic raiding guilds)

[Kudos]

Cool, so you've decided to not do content that's available to you. That's your choice.

Yes it is. The arbitrary number of 20 players is the primary cause though.

[kamuimac]

I do think they are still undestimating raiders (even casual raiders) severely. I mean they said something to the effect that Mythic was tuned with the assumption that everyone has concordance and two legendaries? That should be the assumption for Heroic, not Mythic! I am a heroic raider and I have Concordance on alts who mostly got their AP through me queueing missions at my bathroom breaks at work ffs.

the problem is not with them underestimating raiders the problem is with certain raiders having no f... clue on how most of community play this game

just because most vocal people on this forums are nolifing neckbeards who spend 80 hours a week in game it doesnt mean general population do - and no game hsoudl be aimed at people who spend life in their parent basement because then they end up as compelte failures like wildstar or black desert