the brainlessitude of "simyourself" answers

[Weaponized Nuclear Kitten]

I agree that telling people "sim yourself" without any context or manners can be rude and unhelpful, but it IS usually the correct answer for most questions where it is applicable. DPS is a math calculation, and simcraft is a calculator. There are factors at play in real practice that make target dummy sims less useful as a measurement; but there are options within the program that you can set to account for those discrepancies.

When it comes down to it, every character is different (this expansion more so than ever, because BiS doesn't exist because of titanforging), so giving you the EXACT right answer is often impossible from a forum post or an armory profile (as most players carry multiple pieces in their bags and changing out pieces to try out multiple configurations). Telling someone to sim them self is the WoW equivalent of "teaching a man to fish so they don't go hungry again".

[Deathquoi]

Or you can just say "Sim yourself but don't forget to follow the tactics". Both is important, not just one or either.

"Don't forget to follow the tactics" goes without saying. If someone asks my advice on building a computer and I don't add in "don't forget to breathe" at the end, have I been remiss in providing advice?

Running your own sims takes care of 80% of the dumb questions players ask like "what stat should I prioritize" or "is this item an upgrade". Obviously "don't play like a dipshit" goes without saying.

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The biggest issue I have with "sim yourself" answers is when it comes to stat values. Seldom do people understand that these are a snap shot at that point in time, with that specific gear, with those particular talents, over that particular fight length, with perfect reaction times etc. Meaning that if anything slightly changes the values change. But that's not the pitfall. The pitfall is that those weights do not give players a trend. Take fury for example: vers, mastery and haste jump around each other in value. It's not uncommon to see someone with vers>haste/mastery stat weights. However we know from bigger simulations that stat priority is haste>mastery>vers. So long term players would do well to follow guides which often use the priorities developed by doing 10s to 100s of thousands of iterations.

You should frequently update your stat weights. Running stat weights at expansion release and then sticking to those stat weights for the next year or two is not the way to go about things.

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Theory (SimYourself) and practice (PlayYourself) is often very different.

People who answer "SimYourself" do it because they want to look intelligent, while hiding the practical issue of beeing unable to answer a simple question.

Top end raiders managed for expansions without sims, and they still do.

SimulationCraft has been around since TBC and before SimulationCraft elite players used spreadsheets. Elite players don't just guess at what their best gearing options are, they use math and simulation to determine it.

[Seezer]

This forum has became useless, since most of interesting questions are brainlessly answered
SIMYOURSELF

now i want to share with you my opinion on the matter.
I'm an expert in simulation, not in WOW but in real life, i'm am mechanichal designer.
There are plenty of automated calculations tools to design almost everything, but i can assure you that if you base all your knowledge in simulation you will fail badly.
Understanding what happen beyond the simulation is far beyond better that the simulation itself.
simulation is a mere calculus that doesn' t take in account a lot of factor, in addiction the simulation gives you only the result for the "perfect " rotation but doesn't give you any information about the robustness of a certain build, in other words there maybe some setups that in theory may perform better but a little mistake down dramatically the performance, while a less "in theory " perfect build even with some mistakes have a more stable output.
I wonder if the most of "simyorself answerer" is aware of all the constraint made in the simulation.

simulation without brain is useless, this is true in WOW, as it's true in real life.
It can give you some hint, but understanding what happen beyond and why you have certain result is far better that brainlessly pushing a button.

that said , i hope that this forum can return a constructive place where to share opinions with fellows.

I think that if someone is asking for help, is better not to anser than reply "simyourself", try to be constructive, try to be friendly

We all know you're the badassthat down everything, and you're the best , try to give an help to some unfortunate fellow, instead of became
the brainelss badass that is able only to type "simyourself"

In a game of numbers and stats where everyone's values are different compared to their stats and gear "Sim yourself" is the answer. It's not brainless it's the truth. What is brainless though is when someone makes a thread saying "What's better dis trinket or dat?". There is no answer other than simming yourself. But people are lazy and brainless and they want others to do their work for them.

[Trollfat]

Completely agree with you, OP

[kosajk]

no one stops you from being more active member of comunity and answer all that questions about what is better and by how much
not everyone have time to sim random ppls all day long, teaching them how to do it is much better option ;P

also no one says you have to do exact numbers you get from sims in actuall boss fight(depending a lot on sim settings and fight complexity), it will varry alot depending on boss mechanics but thats pretty obvious imo.

[EasymodeX]

Hey hey HEY, relax guys. I think the OP is just saying that the communication is slightly off. We should be saying:

[Murderdoll]

I think you did not read my post with clear head. I agree that for 30second window in nuke phase, yes you should sim it. Also, I am saying that sims won't help you when people are not hitting the adds and this is the factor you can't sim.

What is the point in even making this argument? Noone sims to find out how to do a boss or to help with adds.

If you are, youre deadset spastic and probably cant sim anyway.

Its like saying dont sim to find out how much healing you can do as enh. Well no shit.

[Ribesal]

When you played a specific spec long enough you should roughly know which stat distribution and talents tend to be the best combination. Every precision beyond that is such a little difference that it doesn't really matter anymore, thus making the answer "sim youself" more or less unneccessary.
If someone asks a question most of you answeres with "sim yourself!" doest that person really want an answer that talent x with stat distribution a is 0,065832251433565% better than talent y with stat distribution b? I think not...

Also, as long as i don't know how that program sims or get it's priority, how abilties synergize with each other and so on (i also have no really interest to find that out) i wouldn't use it.
At some point where demonic for havoc DHs was said to be useless, there still was one synergize between some talents, abilities and artifact traits that was never explained in any guide, nor taken to account in most sim programs. for such a long time. (Chaos strike creating souls through demonic appetite which lowers the CD of eye beam through feast on the souls and increasing the uptime on demonic)
Why should i take the results of such programs for granted? I'll try to use my brain instead. getting unprecise numbers, but numbers that are precise enough and where i know why they are how they are


If you swear so much about SimC, why do you only create stat wieghts based on the point where you are, and not an always valid stat distribution? Should you save some time

[ZAURON]

I personally think that sims results are highly overestimated and has became a new useless dick lenght meter, you can not believe me but someone named Ghostcrawler itself talked about that and he clearly pointed out about the limits of simming.
That said , this post was not an anti sim post, is an anti brainless answers post that is different.
If you think one not deserve your answer, don't answer.
Not all the people on the forum is pro like you, maybe is someone that need to be introduced to some mechanichs and is looking for help.
Want to help? be constructive
Dont want to help? ignore and pass on
Just answering "simyourself" is brainless and nonconstructive

[pleblius]

As a mage, every one of our specs has complex stat interactions that make it nearly impossible to give a straight "These are your stat weights for the entire expansion" answer.
People will sim themselves for their stat weights, put on an upgrade, and find their stat weights have completely changed because of these interactions.
So when somebody asks, "Which of these pieces of gear is better?" Or, "What stats should I aim for as a Frost Mage," I can say "Well, your crit soft cap is 33%, and Mastery sucks." As for Haste:Vers:Crit before the crit cap? It depends.
The interactions are extremely complex. I can BS some answer, like "Haste and Crit are about equal until about 25%:30%, then Vers and Haste are about equal and crit falls off." Or I can generate a stat weight profile for whatever my current stats are. (For me, for example, it's Vers=Haste>Int>>Mastery>>Crit. I would never tell somebody else to follow that, though.) But what if I have a Crit/Haste piece that I might replace with a Haste/Vers piece? Is it an upgrade? I can guess, but honestly the best answer is to just sim yourself and find out, or accept that the difference is small enough that it isn't worth the effort to figure out.

And people ask questions like this all the time. We're not going to explain it to the hundreds of people who ask every day. Nobody has that much time. So we put a guide up on Altered Time (for Mages), explain how everything works, and then tell you that if you're ever unsure of anything, you should sim yourself because that's the only semi-reliable answer.
If you expect anything more for simple questions about gear or stats or talents, and you can't find the answer in the guides that exist on class forums or icy veins, then you're straight up asking too much from the community. We say sim yourself because, if we were going to answer you, that's how we would do it. By simming you.

TL;DR - Game is complex. People don't have a ton of time. General guides exist. Simming is used to answer basic math questions, and we don't have time to sim everybody who asks us basic math questions.

Addendum: I should add to my post. I'm in a discord with three of the best Ele Shaman in the world. And they say the same things on a consistent basis, so I'm not just coming at this as a mage. With titanforging and legendaries, on top of every other gear complexity in the game, it's just not possible to give people answers to specific gear questions they have. You can create a "bis" list, but it's never going to be that simple.

[Cynical Person]

When people say sim yourself most idiots just use a bot and run a sim, but the only TRUE way to run a sim is to buff up with food and flask and attack a boss target dummy for 20 minutes straight and gauge what works in your cycle and what needs to be improved.

I don't trust robots to tell me if I'm playing the game right I do it myself..

Which is why I'm a better player than 99% of the community.

[Deathquoi]

Well, one does not have to be a scientist to see that you started playing WoW recently. This must be emphasized because people are CONSTANTLY NOT DOING IT.



What kind of connection breathing has with building a computer? Are you blowing the air out of your mouth to cool the CPU?



Read again "m8". Both is important. Both. Two things at same time. There is no war if there is just one side. Both....Boy, phew, I am glad I am not playing with you.

What kind of connection does not playing like shit have to do with figuring out what collection of stats will do the most damage? There is a right answer to gearing in WoW. It's not subjective. It's a big math problem with a bunch of variables but at the end of the day there is an optimal gear setup and determining what that gear setup is has nothing to do with how well you play.

Since my other analogy tripped you up, let's try something else. Imagine two baseball players. One plays with a bat, the other hits with a tennis racket. Objectively you would say that the baseball bat is better than the tennis racket for hitting a baseball. "But wait," says the idiot with the tennis racket, "I perform better hitting a baseball with a tennis racket!" That doesn't change the fact that a baseball bat is better for hitting a baseball than a tennis racket, it just means the idiot sucks at baseball. Similarly, if you play poorly, and therefore a non-optimal setup is somehow better for you, it doesn't change the fact that the optimal setup is better, it just means you should stop being shit.

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I personally think that sims results are highly overestimated and has became a new useless dick lenght meter, you can not believe me but someone named Ghostcrawler itself talked about that and he clearly pointed out about the limits of simming.
That said , this post was not an anti sim post, is an anti brainless answers post that is different.
If you think one not deserve your answer, don't answer.
Not all the people on the forum is pro like you, maybe is someone that need to be introduced to some mechanichs and is looking for help.
Want to help? be constructive
Dont want to help? ignore and pass on
Just answering "simyourself" is brainless and nonconstructive

When people say sim yourself most idiots just use a bot and run a sim, but the only TRUE way to run a sim is to buff up with food and flask and attack a boss target dummy for 20 minutes straight and gauge what works in your cycle and what needs to be improved.

I don't trust robots to tell me if I'm playing the game right I do it myself..

Which is why I'm a better player than 99% of the community.

When you played a specific spec long enough you should roughly know which stat distribution and talents tend to be the best combination. Every precision beyond that is such a little difference that it doesn't really matter anymore, thus making the answer "sim youself" more or less unneccessary.
If someone asks a question most of you answeres with "sim yourself!" doest that person really want an answer that talent x with stat distribution a is 0,065832251433565% better than talent y with stat distribution b? I think not...

Also, as long as i don't know how that program sims or get it's priority, how abilties synergize with each other and so on (i also have no really interest to find that out) i wouldn't use it.
At some point where demonic for havoc DHs was said to be useless, there still was one synergize between some talents, abilities and artifact traits that was never explained in any guide, nor taken to account in most sim programs. for such a long time. (Chaos strike creating souls through demonic appetite which lowers the CD of eye beam through feast on the souls and increasing the uptime on demonic)
Why should i take the results of such programs for granted? I'll try to use my brain instead. getting unprecise numbers, but numbers that are precise enough and where i know why they are how they are


If you swear so much about SimC, why do you only create stat wieghts based on the point where you are, and not an always valid stat distribution? Should you save some time

I guess it's no surprise that the people that rail against SimCraft have no idea how it's used or how stats work.

Stats and spells in WoW are a mathematical equation. Saying something retarded like "I go and attack a target dummy to see what's best" just makes it obvious that you don't know what you're talking about because that is exactly what SimCraft does for you, it just does it over a 5 minute fight with all the buffs available in raids and then does it 10,000 more times and averages the results, so it's orders of magnitude more accurate than standing around in your order hall smacking a target dummy.

Saying "why don't you just create stat weights that are always valid" just ignores most basic principles of mathematics. The impact that each additional stat point will have changes constantly depending on all your other stats, your talents, your relics, your artifact points... you might as well say "why do weathermen bother coming up with a daily forecast, why don't they just figure out a forecast that works for every day and save some time?"

[Pull My Finger]

This forum has became useless, since most of interesting questions are brainlessly answered
SIMYOURSELF

now i want to share with you my opinion on the matter.
I'm an expert in simulation, not in WOW but in real life, i'm am mechanichal designer.
There are plenty of automated calculations tools to design almost everything, but i can assure you that if you base all your knowledge in simulation you will fail badly.
Understanding what happen beyond the simulation is far beyond better that the simulation itself.
simulation is a mere calculus that doesn' t take in account a lot of factor, in addiction the simulation gives you only the result for the "perfect " rotation but doesn't give you any information about the robustness of a certain build, in other words there maybe some setups that in theory may perform better but a little mistake down dramatically the performance, while a less "in theory " perfect build even with some mistakes have a more stable output.
I wonder if the most of "simyorself answerer" is aware of all the constraint made in the simulation.

simulation without brain is useless, this is true in WOW, as it's true in real life.
It can give you some hint, but understanding what happen beyond and why you have certain result is far better that brainlessly pushing a button.

that said , i hope that this forum can return a constructive place where to share opinions with fellows.

I think that if someone is asking for help, is better not to anser than reply "simyourself", try to be constructive, try to be friendly

We all know you're the badassthat down everything, and you're the best , try to give an help to some unfortunate fellow, instead of became
the brainelss badass that is able only to type "simyourself"

You're right of course, but unfortunately preaching to a herd of sheep for the most part.

[Deathquoi]

Lolo huhuhu boy....let me pull these words out.

- basic principles of mathematics
- a mathematical equation.
- It's a big math problem with a bunch of variables

Just ask your self, does kid of 10 years old...no wait.... is ANYONE expected to know mathematical equations and mathematical problems to play the game? Read it out loud and listen how ridiculous it sounds. Or you won't find it ridiculous at all. That's fine. I won't bother replying.

If you do find how it ridiculous it sounds, then I guess, you will realize that without your "optimal" options, just using a bit brain will be enough to kill Mythic bosses. That of course, destroys your analogy.

What the fuck are you talking about? Nobody expects you to do complicated math problems to play the game. You can play the game for years without ever firing up SimCraft. That's fine, whatever. But if you want to optimize your performance, you need to get to the heart of how your performance is defined in game. Damage output, healing throughput, mitigation, it's all math. There's no skillshots in WoW. If you don't care to optimize your performance, that's fine. If you can find a strong mythic guild that wants someone that doesn't particularly care about maximizing their performance, more power to you. But acting like it's dumb or wrong to optimize your performance is just idiotic, especially when there are tools that will literally do it for you. You can import your gear into RaidBots and it will simulate 300 THOUSAND fights and average them together to determine the optimum setup in literally 30 seconds. Why would you not do that? What possible opposition could you have to that?

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You're right of course, but unfortunately preaching to a herd of sheep for the most part.

Nope, he's exactly wrong and it's sad how many people rail against tools that exist for the sole purpose of helping people perform better in the game.

[Alvito]

With titanforging of gear there aren't static answers. So if you want good information you do want to sim yourself. A pretty easy concept if you put any thought into it.

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Theory (SimYourself) and practice (PlayYourself) is often very different.

People who answer "SimYourself" do it because they want to look intelligent, while hiding the practical issue of beeing unable to answer a simple question.

Top end raiders managed for expansions without sims, and they still do.

There were far less variables before. With tf/wf of gear, weapon relics we no longer have static answers. Nobody is geared the same anymore because of all of this. You are out of touch if you think top end raiders aren't using the tools they have, even more so when they are so quick and easy to use.

[gonzajd777]

This forum has became useless, since most of interesting questions are brainlessly answered
SIMYOURSELF

now i want to share with you my opinion on the matter.
I'm an expert in simulation, not in WOW but in real life, i'm am mechanichal designer.
There are plenty of automated calculations tools to design almost everything, but i can assure you that if you base all your knowledge in simulation you will fail badly.
Understanding what happen beyond the simulation is far beyond better that the simulation itself.
simulation is a mere calculus that doesn' t take in account a lot of factor, in addiction the simulation gives you only the result for the "perfect " rotation but doesn't give you any information about the robustness of a certain build, in other words there maybe some setups that in theory may perform better but a little mistake down dramatically the performance, while a less "in theory " perfect build even with some mistakes have a more stable output.
I wonder if the most of "simyorself answerer" is aware of all the constraint made in the simulation.

simulation without brain is useless, this is true in WOW, as it's true in real life.
It can give you some hint, but understanding what happen beyond and why you have certain result is far better that brainlessly pushing a button.

that said , i hope that this forum can return a constructive place where to share opinions with fellows.

I think that if someone is asking for help, is better not to anser than reply "simyourself", try to be constructive, try to be friendly

We all know you're the badassthat down everything, and you're the best , try to give an help to some unfortunate fellow, instead of became
the brainelss badass that is able only to type "simyourself"

the idea behind simyourself is that you can replicate all condition just moving 1 variable.. a trinket, a talent, a piece of gear.. both at the same time...

controling all the other variable like rotation, retarded ppl, lag... etc etc etc

so yes the asnwer to all questions and the best you can do for your gameplay its SIMYOURSELF on every change, idea, theory, etc that you have on your roll.

otherwise you can pick a guide a just copy a set up form some mythic raider and you ll repeat like a parrot ... knowing a shit wtf are you doing

[Seezer]

I personally think that sims results are highly overestimated and has became a new useless dick lenght meter, you can not believe me but someone named Ghostcrawler itself talked about that and he clearly pointed out about the limits of simming.
That said , this post was not an anti sim post, is an anti brainless answers post that is different.
If you think one not deserve your answer, don't answer.
Not all the people on the forum is pro like you, maybe is someone that need to be introduced to some mechanichs and is looking for help.
Want to help? be constructive
Dont want to help? ignore and pass on
Just answering "simyourself" is brainless and nonconstructive

Tying everything to dicks makes me think you're a little unsure...down there.

[Phaty]

OP wants other people to guess all the gear he has available, guess his skill level and do all the math for him instead of going to raibots.com and taking the few minutes to click a button and wait for more accurate data. There's literally no excuse to not sim when you are trying to be better considering how easy and accessibe sim programs are. I crushed my guildies in dps as a lower ilvl through EN. I finally got my guild on board with simming after the shit show we put on in EN. Now we cruised through NH and are cruising through ToS since everyone is geared optimally.

[MiseryIndex]

Seeing as how there are guides available for rotation and talent choices, the most common question asked is which piece of gear is ideal, or which stat one should be prioritizing. The answer to this question, due to how stats interplay for most classes will always be fucking sim yourself. If you can't sim yourself, and can't find someone to sim for you because you're lazy/stupid, the answers you get will be guesses, feelycraft, or pulled out of someone's ass. Stop making shit up like "but mechanics", no one's going to fucking answer the question based on every possible mechanic or ability you have to deal with, no one is going to fucking predict how many times you have to run away from a boss. The only questions answered with SIMYOSELF are about gear or stats. I have yet to see someone ask "how do i deal with X boss ability?" and be answered with sim yourself. What a stupid forced argument. People trying to argue with math, like it's all fucking magic.

[woopytywoop]

I used to sim a lot but I barely do these days because it's quite obvious what's a gear upgrade and what is not.

in wrath cata or mop I could really get more than 5% by optimizing my gear right because there were hit and expertise caps, nowadays if it's not obvious what's the biggest dps increase is, than the difference is so minor you probably won't notice.

Nevertheless it's still very useful for changing trinkets or deciding when to pick up or drop a tier bonus and if people ask this, then the only right answer is "simyourself".

However, simming should not be an excuse to turn off your brains. In that case it's better not to sim at all and use the info/guides from the community to optimize your gear/gameplay/strategy.