[Spoilers] 7.3 Blood elf discussion.

[OverFanNisseFrasse]

Elf Crusade, Wrath of the Elf, Elfclysm, Mists of Elf, Elflords of Slaughtering Orcs, Elfgion.

World of Elfcraft

[Zulkhan]

I was concerned that we may have to open another thread for it.

It's not too late.

- - - Updated - - -

Sigh, I guess I should just stop whining about it, because it's never going to change. Elves being even good enough to compete with humans at magic died with Kael'thas and then the corpse was mutilated when Aethas stepped into the story.

The one complaint I sympathize with is the one regarding Aethas. He was insufferrable from the beginning and Legion just made it worse. And here I thought he was going to see some light after the purge but nope.

[Koryn123]

We don't have threads about tauren because there is nothing to talk about. Same with trolls. And every forsaken thread is in reality sylvanas thread.

In order to discuss we kinda need a topic.

I'd love to discuss directions the forgotten races could go to inject some more life into them. Like the Tauren perhaps trying to form some united nation of tribes, with the Tauren, Taunka, Yaungol, and Moose Tauren. I think that'd be neat.

And Trolls, now that they don't have Vol'jin, should be led by a kind of impulsive but good son of Vol'jin, or group of sons, to take over a large troll city to live in since they don't have the resources to build one themselves and rinky dink islands and villages are boring. They could go to Revantusk Village and join up with those forest trolls and take over Jintha'Alor, an awesome example of a troll city, imo. A big winding stair-ish temple city going up a mountain sounds awesome to me. Or they could move into Zul'Aman to be close to their BE allies. Or Zul'Gurub to give the Horde a stronger presence down there.

And Forsaken should solidify their position in the Lordaeron continent by making Stromgarde into a Forsaken stronghold (but not just replacing all the buildings, it should keep that human castle look, but a darker gloomy take on it, like Shadowfang Keep or Karazhan). Perhaps the Forsaken, along with the Darkspear in Jintha'Alor attack the Wildhammers at Aerie Peak, and the high elves at Quel'Danil are only saved by interference from Lor'themar or Alleria now that she's back, and they get those elves to come back to Quel'thalas since there's nothing to be done about the Wildhammers, who flee to Ironforge.

And the dwarves in Ironforge hear about how the Horde are getting more entrenched in the Lordaeron continent and may cross the Thandol Span someday soon, and the Council decides it's time to retake Grim Batol, so a united force goes there to reconquer it from the Twilight's Hammer if any remain, and fix it up for the Wildhammers, and Grim Batol becomes Khaz Modan's center of national defense on the northern front, to counter the Forsaken in Stromgarde.

And the humans' big growth here could be Danath finally coming back with lots of Stromgarde natives, like the League of Arathor faction from Arathi Basin, perhaps going to Grim Batol to help combat the Forsaken in Stromgarde, knowing the area better than anyone. I love non-Stormwind human development as long as it's not at the expense of someone else like most Kirin Tor development is.

And the Silver Hand is even more concerned by the Forsaken's new aggression, especially since one of their knights went missing (Nathanos' little brother) and the Forsaken are suspected. Perhaps they take over Tyr's Hand as a bigger, better stronghold from which to strike at Stratholme. It'd be silly of them not to defend the healthiest land in the plaguelands. Maybe Turalyon returns to Lordaeron to lead the Silver Hand (I doubt the player will forever) and restore the part of his home held by Scourge for those who want to live there in peace, and to be prepared should the Forsaken prove aggressive to them further? And Alleria could be there too, since the Plaguelands are right next to Quel'thalas, and she could lead the elves from Quel'Danil perhaps to come and clean out Quel'lithien Lodge, maybe with blood elves' help, to be like a joint outpost at the border of Quel'thalas and Lordaeron again?

Dunno what the Night Elves could do because I don't care much for them besides the pragmatic ones, but there's plenty for them to do in their vast territory, I'm sure. Like building the center of their military might in a place where it can protect their territory like in Ashenvale, rather than where Feathermoon Stronghold was, useless on an island far from where it could protect anyone from the Horde in Cata (and I guess earlier in Vanilla too, though that was a smaller single clan with a few volunteers).

Orcs need to do something at home, and not hog the spotlight by Blizzard shoehorning them into being in charge of everything going on in Stromgarde in this scenario. With Sylvanas in charge, Blizz wouldn't do that, I'd hope. Orcs could do logging in Azshara or something. Anything not involving Thrall in Go'el mode.

Pandas whatever. I'm not invested in them at all so my brain isn't willing to work hard to think of something for them, but I'm sure someone is and could find things for them to do.

Gnomes and goblins are sidekicks and will tag along with dwarves and orcs respectively.

Worgen can try for Gilneas again if they feel like it, cooperating with the dwarves in Grim Batol now, and perhaps the Stormpike Expedition if that's still around lorewise, I forget, and they'd be another player in that tense stuff going on in the Lordaeron continent too.

Dunno what the Draenei are gonna be doing in the rest of Legion so I'd wait and see before I'd try to think of what they'd do, but likely they'd simply merge into the Army of Light, if WoW weren't dependent on each race rigidly remaining in the faction it was added to.

Stormwind needs to quit dipping their fingers in everyone's pies and fix their own problems at home. Westfall. Duskwood. Redridge Mountains to a lesser extent if the Dark Horde aren't there anymore. Get Westfall cleared of bandits, have the castle send help to fix up the farms and stuff, and get those jobs up and running for those homeless down there.

And Dalaran is always shoving its nose into everyone's business, so I'd bet they'd go back to their crater and try to neutrally help the Alliance against the Horde in any way they could. I'd hope they did, showing their true colors for the umpteenth time, and THIS time, the blood elves actually wise up and leave Dalaran. Maybe Aethas could grow a pair and take a leaf out of Rommath's book. Or better yet, Aethas could still be a whiny apologist for the Kirin Tor and Rommath just strips him of his Magister status and absorbs the Sunreavers into the Magisters (for real this time though), and they get to work at Magister's Terrace as their center of magical operations like the Kirin Tor have Dalaran.

Also, Scourge needs to be big and evil again. Have Kel'thuzad take over and build up inside Stratholme and Deatholme (the only remaining Scourge stronghold in the best position with like not a whole lot of opposition, that Blizz seems to have completely forgotten about).

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Because it is black and white.
They did try to imprison or kill all the Sunreavers, citizens of Dalaran.
And sure: She was in a dark place and blabla, but that is no excuse for what she did.

The only reason people "accept" this is because it's not real, it is just a game.
But think about it for a moment!
1. An attack happens on an allied nation by a member of a group.
2. The leader of your nation turns against the entire group and tries to imprison all of them, even kills the one who resist arrest.
3. It gets worse! The leader invites a foreign army and a foreign gang to aid in this.

The moment some nation here started to do this they would have UN troops on their doorstep within a week.
But only in WoW can you find people defending it.

I mean sure it is black and white when you are biased against one side, that's how that works, you know?

Right out of the gate you are portraying your opinion, your interpretation of the events, as if they were facts.

You might disagree with the Silver Covenant and Jaina's response all you want, but the inciting event was that Sunreaver agents used their station on Dalaran to use its resources and steal a powerful item for the horde. Dalaran, as a neutral entity with a council, had decided to safeguard the Divine Bell on Darnassus. Alliance favoritism? Sure, but we have no indication whatsoever that the Night elves were going to use the Bell. Garrosh, on the other hand, stole it to attack the Alliance and continue his conquest of Pandaria, using horde loyalists within Dalaran.

No matter how you "view" things, the inciting incident was the betrayal of Sunreaver agents to Dalaran after Jaina and the council had made a decision. This is what happened; how you deal with that is up for grabs, but the fact that Sunreaver agents commited treason against Dalaran's political stance is unquestionable.

In the real world, even people with good intentions get send to jail for treason; an no, the morality of WoW is definitely not the same that our world (no geneva convention) these sunreaver agents willingly sided with someone they knew would cause great harm with said artifact. The Sunreavers, individually innocent, are still responsible as a collective, because their faction failed to keep Dalaran's security safe.

Regardless, wow is not the real world, Azeroth is in a constant state of open war between two blocks, the comparison with our world is pointless and missplaced. Even so, Jaina's actions here pale in comparison to real, historically recent world events. (I mean how many democratically elected goverments the US alone has toppled)

What actions Jaina and the Council should or should have not taken are up for debate, but repercussions were unavoidable.

From an entertainment point of view, I liked seeing the alliance for once not being the goody two shoes and do something questionable. Yes, it is morally wrong, but we are literally playing a game about war for entertainment value at this point, we have for DECADES. Kinda late to ask for an anti-conflict message.

This is what I mean when I say it's not black and white; Dalaran and Jaina had to take action against the Sunreaver betrayal, but those actions are the ones for debate and justification.

Unless you are biased against one side and go "nuh uh! Jaina went crazy!" or "ngh!!! Jaina was absolutely right"

I'm not saying that being biased is horrible, is a common trap to fall into. The only reason I'm not biased against either is because my favorite horde race are the blood elves, and my favorite alliance race is high elves.

[Friendlyimmolation]

You might disagree with the Silver Covenant and Jaina's response all you want, but the inciting event was that Sunreaver agents used their station on Dalaran to use its resources and steal a powerful item for the horde. Dalaran, as a neutral entity with a council, had decided to safeguard the Divine Bell on Darnassus. Alliance favoritism? Sure, but we have no indication whatsoever that the Night elves were going to use the Bell. Garrosh, on the other hand, stole it to attack the Alliance and continue his conquest of Pandaria, using horde loyalists within Dalaran.

The Kirin'tor never said that, and with the alliance going "THE BELL IS OURS" surely gave the Horde faith that it wasnt going to be used. Also it was one agent.

No matter how you "view" things, the inciting incident was the betrayal of Sunreaver agents to Dalaran after Jaina and the council had made a decision. This is what happened; how you deal with that is up for grabs, but the fact that Sunreaver agents commited treason against Dalaran's political stance is unquestionable.

The council did not make a decision, it was Jaina's choice.

In the real world, even people with good intentions get send to jail for treason; an no, the morality of WoW is definitely not the same that our world (no geneva convention) these sunreaver agents willingly sided with someone they knew would cause great harm with said artifact. The Sunreavers, individually innocent, are still responsible as a collective, because their faction failed to keep Dalaran's security safe.

Once again, one agent. Its ok to break neutrality, as long as you lean towards the Alliance apparently. Jaina should have locked it in Dalaran's vaults.

[Mehrunes]

Nope, I recognise snark when I see it.

This is the part where I bring up her attempting to enslave Eyir so she could have more Valkyr.

So your proof of Sylvanas being LK 2.0 is speculation? Fascinating.

Right...yeah, whatever.

Thought out response you got here :3

[Alanar]

Get into the vat and jump on the fruit!
Get into the vat and jump on the fruit!
Get into the vat and jump on the fruit!

I lol'd
/10chars

[Mehrunes]

You know that, canonicaly, most of the Sunreavers were imprisoned, only a few were killed, right? It's not the genocide that people make it out to be.

Still ethnic cleansing though.

You know that, people are just going to ignore this and just keep writing that it was a genocide (which makes no sense at all), right? ;_:

And yet the only person that consistently keeps calling it a genocide is Kangodo. Alas, what better way to make a point about other people weaving a narrative, than reaching meta levels of weaving a narrative and weave one about them.

Not true at all. There's a lot of exageration about that, and even during the Horde quests the SC is primarily capturing Sunreavers rather than executing them.

First Horde quest during the Purge involving the SC talked about a lot of bloodshed, the second was about a SC mage feeding Sunreavers to Underbelly's shark, the third, in itself focused on taking down the SC agent supposed to hold Aethas captive still manages to mention SC slaughtering Sunreavers (outright saying that's what the most SC agents are doing), the fourth is about SC killing the dragonhawks (so they could peacefully capture remaining Sunreavers by preventing them to leave, during Jaina's attempt to drive Sunreavers out of the city ). That leaves only the final rescue of Aethas and the quest where you teleport some named NPCs out. Primarily capturing indeed.

[RyanEX]

So your proof of Sylvanas being LK 2.0 is speculation? Fascinating.




Thought out response you got here :3

Well I could theorise that she'd tried to enslave Eyir cause she's hot. But I'll leave that for the fanfic writers. What's your "speculation" on why she was trying to enslave the queen of the Valkyr?

[Mehrunes]

Sylvanas:
- Was researching a plague to end all life

The most she ever wanted to kill was all humans for spawning Arthas and even when it comes to this, she hasn't mentioned such plans in years.

- Allowed unholy experiments on innocent people

I can't recall any that has been confirmed to be innocent. Most were either Alliance forces or Scarlet members.

- Sacrificed her forsaken comrades without remorse for her vengeance

Forsaken kinda shared the goal of getting LK down at all costs. And they didn't even suffer any significant losses prior to his death.

- Made a faustian bargain to escape ethernal damnation

What was faustian about it?

- Spreads her plague without any remorse

*Sylvanas uses a weapon* *It's super effective (if the desired effect was producing Alliance tears)*

- Conquers lands, spreading war, despite the undead having no need for food or territory

Alliance started the war and brought quite a lot of it to Lordaeron front. And the goal was clearly kicking the Alliance out.

- Suggests damning her own allies into undeath to use (again) as sacrificial lambs in conflict

"Damning". "Sacrificial lambs". Got any more baseless claims to add here?

- Makes another faustian bargain, now to a clearly evil entity, in order to enslave another entity just so she spread more undeath

We don't know what she planned to do with Eyir. Helya was irrelevant to the factions before Odyn made us dance to his tune.

There were farmers and citizens among them, up until Cataclysm. Garrosh of all people stopped it.

In regions where farmers in general formed militias. Unless you have proof that the ones who were captured and experimented on were not part of these militias (which in some cases would be rather hard given that they had only mob-type names), you can't claim they were fer sure innocent.

Yeah, because a plague that can kill anything can differentiate between targets.

A sword can kill anything. I don't see you crying about swords.

Plague is a mass destruction weapon. It's not like a fireball or a sword that you swing against a target. I find amazing that you are appalled by blood elves (who resisted) were put to the sword, but it's okay to produce weapons of mass destruction and use them on civilians. And you call Vereesa the hypocrite?

Yeah, it's not like fire spreads or anything. Or that a fireball large enough hits more than one target. But a Blight barrel is literally a nuke

Oh, so doing evil shit because someone orders you around is ok now?
And securing borders is very different from expanding them. If anything, expanding borders makes you even more vulnerable and pisses a lot more people that may want to kill you.

Yeah, driving out almost all enemy forces other than Aerie Peak and Refugee "Blight-lake-waiting-to-happen" Pointe is top notch vulnerability. You surely thought that one through.

If it were the opposite, if the Alliance was attacking a Silvermoon, and the Kirin Tor decided to help Silvermoon's defenses, but not help on any offensive action, because they think the Alliance is being unreasonable, would you call it breaking neutrality? We all know your answer.

What a nice projection horseshit. Helping one faction against another is a breach of neutrality whether this triggers you or not. And Jaina was personally engaged in either capturing PoWs or killing Horde soldiers, depending on what her traps did. But you ignored that, because that would expose that your narrative about not helping offensively for the shit it is.

Not the point. Nice way to dodge the question of experimenting on captured civilians.

You need to first substantiate your claim they were civilians and only then do you get to cry about people dodging it.

Wow, you are really trying to justify mass destruction weapons! Next Purge of Dalaran, maybe Jaina should just release poison gas to kill all the elves, that probably would be fine. And I'd rather take my chances with the sword. I can fight back when confronted by a sword, and with the insane magic of Warcraft, healing is hardly a problem. The plague is much worse, and kills everything, friend or foe, fighter or civilian, in its path. Putting the sword as worse is insanely dumb.

Blight bombs are very, very unlikely meet the definition of WMDs to begin with. Because the area of effect isn't, you know, massive. And unlike gas weapons or nuclear fallout it's not exactly spread via air that much.

Nice way to justify genocide and cowardice.

It's not the genocide that people make it out to be.

Not until enough pissed people decide enough is enough.
But then you will start crying: "Kill Genn Greymane, he's a shitty character!"

Pretty sure Friendly argued against that idea when that topic popped up. But, when in doubt, let's conflate users! And yay, pissed off Alliance may want to invade. Good thing then they have to go through some of the shittiest routes on Azeroth to get into Forsaken territory.

To end a battle that HE STARTED and half the Horde didn't want to happen!

In a war her forces started. If karma was real, destruction of Theramore would be it.

Enough, I'm going to ignore you from now on. Stupidity has its limits.

Each successive post of yours disproves that assertion.

Well I could theorise that she'd tried to enslave Eyir cause she's hot. But I'll leave that for the fanfic writers. What's your "speculation" on why she was trying to enslave the queen of the Valkyr?

The speculation is the enslavement part to begin with, not the goal behind it.

[RyanEX]

"Submit...the Valkyr are mine."

And we're supposed to read what into this?

[Mehrunes]

Right out of the gate you are portraying your opinion, your interpretation of the events, as if they were facts.

You might disagree with the Silver Covenant and Jaina's response all you want, but the inciting event was that Sunreaver agents used their station on Dalaran to use its resources and steal a powerful item for the horde. Dalaran, as a neutral entity with a council, had decided to safeguard the Divine Bell on Darnassus. Alliance favoritism? Sure, but we have no indication whatsoever that the Night elves were going to use the Bell. Garrosh, on the other hand, stole it to attack the Alliance and continue his conquest of Pandaria, using horde loyalists within Dalaran.

No matter how you "view" things, the inciting incident was the betrayal of Sunreaver agents to Dalaran after Jaina and the council had made a decision. This is what happened; how you deal with that is up for grabs, but the fact that Sunreaver agents commited treason against Dalaran's political stance is unquestionable.

There is no indication of the Council making any decisions and with Jaina's disregard for that body, it is likely she went on her own. And aiding one belligerent against another is an outright breach of neutrality. The goals of the belligerents are irrelevant (and for the record, Alliance started the whole war, so Jaina aided the aggressor). She also personally captured/killed Horde soldiers trying to breach into Darnassus. Which is even less neutral.

What actions Jaina and the Council should or should have not taken are up for debate, but repercussions were unavoidable.

This is what I mean when I say it's not black and white; Dalaran and Jaina had to take action against the Sunreaver betrayal, but those actions are the ones for debate and justification.

Why are you lumping Dalaran and Council with Jaina's actions in regards to the Purge when Jaina acted on her own, which is only highlighted by the fact that she mostly used Vereesa's private militia to carry it out and even got a batallion of Stormwind troops to aid her?

"Submit...the Valkyr are mine."

And we're supposed to read what into this?

Unless English is your 13th language and you don't know that the word "submit" doesn't have some inherent slavery connotations, nothing much? The only source hinting at Sylvanas' goals in Stormheim in detail was a damaged book of the captain of one of her ships, mentioning her desire to steal the power of "v" (probably Val'kyr). How she planned to go at this specifically is unknown. She could have wanted to drain Eyir's power, or her bargain with Helya was about delivering Eyir to Helheim. We don't know.

[RyanEX]

So first hand or second hand murder (via draining Eyir and/or handing her over to Helya) or draining then handing her over to be enslaved by Helya (but anyone with a lick of common sense will question why Helya would bother keeping a depowered Eyir around). Sounds much better doesn't it.

So other trying to be clever and dodging the question how bout actually answering?

[Mehrunes]

the moment lorthemar didn't want to do something she wanted, she threatened to rescind that aide and leave them all to die to the scourge that was still swarming in the scar and ghostlands.

It wasn't something she wanted. It was what the Horde demanded. Lor'themar wanted to decline the Horde's call to war, which would leave him out of the Horde with no support anyway.

In her defense, everyone was needed in that war. They didnt have the luxury of waiting.

And the Blood Oath doesn't mention a "we just had a civil war" opt out from obligations.

[Friendlyimmolation]

So first hand or second hand murder (via draining Eyir and/or handing her over to Helya)

This implies either wanted Eyir dead.

or draining then handing her over to be enslaved by Helya

also an assumption

(but anyone with a lick of common sense will question why Helya would bother keeping a depowered Eyir around

Maybe to piss off a big glowy guy, has a beard, shouts about Valor alot.

So other trying to be clever and dodging the question how bout actually answering?

apparently Mehrunes was too clever if you can't see that what you just responded to was his answer.

[Mehrunes]

So first hand or second hand murder (via draining Eyir and/or handing her over to Helya) or draining then handing her over to be enslaved by Helya (but anyone with a lick of common sense will question why Helya would bother keeping a depowered Eyir around). Sounds much better doesn't it.

So in order to deflect the part where your assumption has been pointed out to you, you decided that doubling down on nonsense is a great tactic and went with more assumptions? Simply brilliant. And Helya wanted to keep even the players whom she never saw before around. She's kinda a hoarder. Also, common sense is a fallacy.

So other trying to be clever and dodging the question how bout actually answering?

I just did. How is pointing out not only that Sylvanas could have wanted to do other things with Eyir, but also that the only known source on the topic saying jack shit about enslavement "dodging the question" (congrats on hypocrisy by the way, since you completely dodged the latter)? Go on, humor me. And I know I shouldn't be making comments about your reading skills, but then again I don't need to, you just made one for me.

apparently Mehrunes was too clever if you can't see that what you just responded to was his answer.

These people make me really, really sad.

The blood elves had each expansion some spotlight, it wasn't really much and blizz could easily give other races the similar attention at the same time, but they just don't do it which is quite odd.

Your conclusion does not follow your premise.

We don't have threads about tauren because there is nothing to talk about. Same with trolls. And every forsaken thread is in reality sylvanas thread.

In order to discuss we kinda need a topic.

I dunno, "50 shades of failure" pops to mind when I see the word "Darkspear". We could compare which Darkspear failed the most and why. Then again there's like six of them and the story of the most developed one, if written down, fits on a napkin.

[RyanEX]

I have thick skin so you can keep it up if you like.

So your plan is to simply say "She could have other things she wanted her for" and leave it at that? Brilliant. Ambiguous as hell and leaves plenty of maneuvering room. Let's try and figure out what "other things" could mean based off of what was going on in the cinematic.

Eyir chained and immobile...check.
Sylvanas torturing her...check.
Sylvanas stating "Submit"...check.
Slvanas stating "The Valkyr are mine!"...check.
Genn stating that he's "taken away her future"...check.

1)We can dismiss seeking an alliance off the bat.
2)Killing isn't entirely off the table, it could possibly take Eyir verbally giving her control over the Valkyr.
3)Enslavement is highly likely since she'd need Eyir to be able to make more Valkyr other than those that are current.
4)Giving her to Helya is a possibility, but only if Helya could give Sylvanas the ability to make more Valkyr and this isn't known. Also begs the question of why she didn't just take here there after capturing her since the cinematic opens with her already torturing Eyir.

[Friendlyimmolation]

1)We can dismiss seeking an alliance off the bat.

Because no one ever subdues anyone ever in an attempt to win them over to their side.

3)Enslavement is highly likely since she'd need Eyir to be able to make more Valkyr other than those that are current.

highly likely because you say so. I can say its highly likely that Helya would give Sylvanas Val'kyr in trade.

4)Giving her to Helya is a possibility, but only if Helya could give Sylvanas the ability to make more Valkyr and this isn't known. Also begs the question of why she didn't just take here there after capturing her since the cinematic opens with her already torturing Eyir.

so basically what are you arguing, that Sylvanas was going to enslave Eyir based off assumption while trying to say there is no room for assumption?

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

There is no indication of the Council making any decisions and with Jaina's disregard for that body, it is likely she went on her own. And aiding one belligerent against another is an outright breach of neutrality. The goals of the belligerents are irrelevant (and for the record, Alliance started the whole war, so Jaina aided the aggressor). She also personally captured/killed Horde soldiers trying to breach into Darnassus. Which is even less neutral.


Why are you lumping Dalaran and Council with Jaina's actions in regards to the Purge when Jaina acted on her own, which is only highlighted by the fact that she mostly used Vereesa's private militia to carry it out and even got a batallion of Stormwind troops to aid her?.

We have no recorded objection from the council? So why do you assume that silence was opposition to Jaina's actions? What is most likely then, that the Council was against Jaina's actions but said nothing, or that their silence was a tacit endorsement?

Jaina, and the Council -again, we are never told of any disagreement- decided to keep the Bell safe in Darnassus. Definitely an alliance biased decision, but that's what Jaina and the Council decided was for the best, and again we are in no way to believe Jaina took this decision on her own. When the horde stole the bell, they acted AGAINST Dalaran's interests and decision, an aggression against Dalaran's sovereignty. Stealing the bell was an act of war against Dalaran helped by treason within the Sunreavers themselves. You might have issues with how Jaina handled things, but you can't deny that the theft of the Bell was the Horde acting against Dalaran's sovereignty. Dalaran's Goal was to keep the Bell safe, the Horde acted against that.

This betrayal within the Sunreavers and the Horde's actions against Dalaran had to be met with consequences -those are what we can disagree on- but the moment the Horde acted against Dalaran it made Jaina's mind.

Again, assuming that Jaina acted against the council's wishes is just that, an assumption, and with no objections being presented at the moment, it IS safer to assume their silence is endorsement. The moment the Horde acted against Dalaran and stole the bell broke the neutrality agreement in Jaina's eyes, repaying that breach with escalation. The purge itself reveals she had already made the executive decision of severing ties with the Horde per their actions, that's the whole point of the Purge, to remove the horde and join the alliance. Assuming that the council was against that is pointless, because we would have know had it been so.

If the council had been against Jaina's actions, it would have most certainly led to in-faction disputes, yet on 5.2 we saw Dalaran happily working for the alliance, barely a peep about the whole mess. Does that sound like the stance the council would have taken if they had abhorred Jaina's actions so much?

As far as we know, the council was complicit in Jaina's action by omission on the least. That Jaina used Alliance forces to uproot the Horde from Dalaran after she considered the theft of the Bell as the breaking point of Dalaran's neutrality is expected, both to make things less awkward and to avoid more duplicity within the Kirin Tor. She IS uprooting the horde from Dalaran, she can't rely on people that might have divided loyalties, don't you agree with that?

[Zulkhan]

The Kirin'tor never said that, and with the alliance going "THE BELL IS OURS" surely gave the Horde faith that it wasnt going to be used. Also it was one agent.

Let's not forget Vol'jin was more ok about leaving the Bell on Garrosh's hands than the Alliance's. Just sayin'. From the Horde's perspective the Alliance getting the Bell was nothing but bad business and Jaina clearly favoring them could have only be considered a blatant violation of her proclaimed neutrality.

Anyone can find all the excuses of the world to justify such behavior but arguing in favor of the argument "Jaina didn't break any neutrality" is just silly.