Why EU relocation quota is a huge bull**t

[Flarelaine]

-Hey, captain, one engine doesn't work and the fuel leaks into the passenger area
-Who cares, lets take-off and be done with this flight

This is literally the dumbest argument i have ever heard

You act as if Hungary did not have a whole litany of problems more severe than a handful of refugees. Foremost among them is a corrupt, thieving government, bent on not merely funneling all domestic and EU funds to cronies and strawmen, but also on wrecking education and the health service.

No, I don't agree taking on some refugees would wreck the country. The present government is doing just that, however.

[veehro]

Turns out living in Eastern Europe is a shitty experience, and places like Germany and France are much better. Who knew?



So... medium right news?

Allegedly they come from a warzone and want refugee status meaning they just want shelter until the war is over and then they want to return.

How ever i was unaware that refugees get to choose the country they want to go to or some one without a passport can just claim he is from syria and people have to believe him.

Here in eastern europe we do give them the minimum amount required to survive but its exepected they find a job like every one else. How ever they don't like that so they go and leech the germans wellfare system while organising themselves in comunities demanding sharia law because that worked really well from the place they came from

[Ravenblade]

Why is the EU accepting refugees from Eritrea at all? Something is wrong with the system if they're accepting immigrants as refugees.

Eritrea is literally a textbook dictatorship, the kind of you knew from 90s era videogames such as Jagged Alliance. It is not even legal to leave the country, anyone leaving and returned risks lifelong incarceration with torture applied, that is if they are not simply caught and put into torture camps outside Eritrea.
National service is compulsory which some may say would be okay and fleeing is desertion with the caveat that serving in Eritrea military is de facto not only compulsory but also indefinite and not limited to age and wages earned there are kept intentionally low so that they can't really make a living from that at any point of time while also getting very low provisions while living in disastrous conditions and working de facto around the clock. A classic slave army. Another issue is the fact that free speech which many people hold so dear here is practically non-existent, there is no press or internet, if you think NK has it bad then, yes, they do but Eritrea is close behind. It is humanely understandable why anyone would flee that.

Why the EU is taking these people is another question. A lot Eritreans do not even file asylum requests which would validate their refugee status eventually, I believe it is closely connected to being information-starved and once outside the country also being guided around by shady figures such as human traffickers, torture camp leaders and renegade militias. This puts a lot pressure on the EU as has the entire situation with African migrants which is why the EU has made some deals which - if the contents ever got out - could tarnish its reputation since it's a deal based on quid pro quo: No more criticizing human rights issues and crimes against humanity in return for heightened domestic border control against those who want to escape the regimes and persecution, say not just in Eritrea but Sudan as well.

What should have been done instead is creating some sort of EU exclaves in some North-African regions where requests are processed before people get into dhingies and where some people from some states also receive a crash course in the legalities and formalities surrounding asylum requests, eventual transfer to and living inside the EU.

[Wyrt]

Eritrea is literally a textbook dictatorship, the kind of you knew from 90s era videogames such as Jagged Alliance. It is not even legal to leave the country, anyone leaving and returned risks lifelong incarceration with torture applied, that is if they are not simply caught and put into torture camps outside Eritrea.
National service is compulsory which some may say would be okay and fleeing is desertion with the caveat that serving in Eritrea military is de facto not only compulsory but also indefinite and not limited to age and wages earned there are kept intentionally low so that they can't really make a living from that at any point of time while also getting very low provisions while living in disastrous conditions and working de facto around the clock. A classic slave army. Another issue is the fact that free speech which many people hold so dear here is practically non-existent, there is no press or internet, if you think NK has it bad then, yes, they do but Eritrea is close behind. It is humanely understandable why anyone would flee that.

Why the EU is taking these people is another question. A lot Eritreans do not even file asylum requests which would validate their refugee status eventually, I believe it is closely connected to being information-starved and once outside the country also being guided around by shady figures such as human traffickers, torture camp leaders and renegade militias. This puts a lot pressure on the EU as has the entire situation with African migrants which is why the EU has made some deals which - if the contents ever got out - could tarnish its reputation since it's a deal based on quid pro quo: No more criticizing human rights issues and crimes against humanity in return for heightened domestic border control against those who want to escape the regimes and persecution, say not just in Eritrea but Sudan as well.

What should have been done instead is creating some sort of EU exclaves in some North-African regions where requests are processed before people get into dhingies and where some people from some states also receive a crash course in the legalities and formalities surrounding asylum requests, eventual transfer to and living inside the EU.

Ok. That is an acceptable reason for seeking asylum. Thanks for the info.

[Noradin]

thanks to the EU's freedom of movement you can move all 2-3 million of them to Poland and in a week they will all be back in Germany, UK, and france.

Since when does being granted asylum equal citizenship?

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Idk where, the article just says in Germany.

The article says that the refugee made this claim about Germany, it didn't say anything about whether that was the truth.
Want three guesses why?

[Noradin]

Sadly, not many have this kind of insight, and many of those that do, seemingly like to turn a blind eye towards it. For whatever reason.

Conspiracy theories are against the forum rules, and what you just wrote is one--unless you have credible sources for every part of it?

[Mayhem]

I only know what my sister reports to me as facts. Seeing that she is at the very source of such observations, I tend to lend some credit to her. You might not. And of course there are no actual studies for this. If there is barely any money for the programmes themselves, who would be able to fund such complicated research? I'll take the observations of someone in a leading position in such an organization for more than 15 years. I can't offer anything less anecdotal, which, actually, is a big part of the problem in itself.

But I have to reject the notion of conspiracy. That's bullshit and you know it. Things can go awry by the sheer inaction of many people, or structural shortcomings of a system. You don't need a conspiracy for that...

Well the party that would gain votes en mass if this was true probably should be interested into funding such a study.

[Noradin]

I don't think such things are even remotely on the radar of these fucktards. And why would it? The standard plattitudes seem to work well enough currently. No need to come up with actual data in our world these days. (I know, I'm sort of guilty of this myself with my posting. But at least it's based an actual first-hand insights, not heresay or public opinion.)

So you claim, but your post does still fit the definition of a conspiracy theory for this site.
And no, I'm not asking for the name of your sister. Posting information tht could identify you in real life would get your account deleted.


Well, since you were frank about it here some throughts about your point:

The main problem I see is that people change their identities to reset their "refugee status", thus slowing down the process and benefitting from it, too. But if we look at this poblem and what was attempted to do against it in the past we find the following:

The EU attempted a treaty that clearly stated that the first EU member state refugees enter had to make sure to acertain their identity (fingerprints, not who they were or where they came from) so they can be indentified in future.
This was all nice and had support from everyone, but then some states turned around and claimed "whatever state refugees first entered must keep them" thus creating an incentive for said states to fail, to miss people, to make it impossible to re-identify them.

And that is the real problem: Without the quota to spread the burden of who has to take on these people the states left alone with them will always have a very big incentive to "fail" making these who enter identificable. Because failing in this is the only way to get rid of them.
In short: in an attempt to to not take on this burden the individual member states shot themselves in the foot, making the system highly exploitable.
We need that quota otherwise we will keep getting exploited due to our own fault.

And no, getting asylum does not equal citizenship and thus does not equal getting "freedom of movement".
The only way people can make it seem like they do is by "loosing their identity" and applying for asylum as a "new person".

[Stormdash]

so basically Europe can save itself by dismantling the welfare state

I think it's more a 'could have' at this point. Demography is a bell that can't be unrung without atrocity, after all, which is basically the 10 words or less explanation of the former Yugoslavia in the mid-90s.

[Noradin]

What really is necessary is taking away incentives for member states to "fail" to make sure refugees cannot change identity whenever they want.

[Mayhem]

So if they can't keep them there, why are they still fighting tooth and nail to keep them from being relocated?

[Mormolyce]

Here in eastern europe we do give them the minimum amount required to survive

That sounds like life in Eastern Europe alright.

It's survival and that's about it.

[Stormdash]

That sounds like life in Eastern Europe alright.

It's survival and that's about it.

Eastern Europe's advanced comprehension of the survival instinct will be much easier to observe in about 25 years (compared to Western Europe's).

[veehro]

That sounds like life in Eastern Europe alright.

It's survival and that's about it.

Well yeah thats what handouts from the goverment should be like.

Because people are expected to you know...GET A JOB

And handouts are supposed to be you know...A SAFTEY NET not a legitimate way of making a living

[Mormolyce]

Well yeah thats what handouts from the goverment should be like.

I'm not talking about handouts.

[Flarelaine]

I met some exchange Engineering students from Germany once, back when I was at uni.

I'm fairly certain that most of the English speaking world would count as "ridiculously lax standards" compared to the level of education those guys had.

They need to have standards if they want to keep "German engineering" a byword.

[Stormdash]

Well yeah thats what handouts from the goverment should be like.

Because people are expected to you know...GET A JOB

And handouts are supposed to be you know...A SAFTEY NET not a legitimate way of making a living

Exactly -- "safety net" in real life is something you end up in in a catastrophic situation and it's main benefit is that it saves you from death or grievous bodily injury, and you climb out or are helped out, possibly still injured, and feel embarrassed you ever ended up there since people were watching and it might have been your fault. What you never see, is someone fall off the high wire or trapeze, end up in the safety net, and then... y'know, stay there, because it's a valid lifestyle choice.

[karumayu]

Since when does being granted asylum equal citizenship?

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The article says that the refugee made this claim about Germany, it didn't say anything about whether that was the truth.
Want three guesses why?

This has also left me with scratching my head. The lastest (may2016 proposal of Dublin IV) has paragraphs that include stricter policies to stem secondary movement. Also before they are able to receive any form of handouts as refugees, they need to register with the system in whatever country they are at. During the process they are treated as asylum seekers and does not fall into the refugee category, thus not eligible for the increased amounts of money or lodging.

[GreenJesus]

Eastern Europe is full of poor countries. Yugoslavian countries are still recovering the war in the 90s. Bosnia still has bombed buildings everywhere. Croatia had to replace nearly all the roofs in Dubvrovnik due to the bombings. There is little money there. Only due to tourism in recent years are they starting to come back, but putting the burden of refugees on them is difficult. The refugees should be grateful they aren't dead (after all that is the reason you apply for refugee status).

[Mayhem]

Eastern Europe is full of poor countries. Yugoslavian countries are still recovering the war in the 90s. Bosnia still has bombed buildings everywhere. Croatia had to replace nearly all the roofs in Dubvrovnik due to the bombings. There is little money there. Only due to tourism in recent years are they starting to come back, but putting the burden of refugees on them is difficult. The refugees should be grateful they aren't dead (after all that is the reason you apply for refugee status).

Bosnia and Herzegovina isn't part of the EU.