When and why exactly did Arthas turn evil?

[Deleted]

1. he was a paladin?

He became one out of pride and arrogance, not religious zeal.

2. he was on a crusade to stop the scourge and did sacrafice everything for it?

No, he was on a personal vendetta, with no ideology behind it.

no it is not vengeance and arrogance and certainly not pride.

No?

"Damn the men! Nothing shall prevent me from having my revenge, old friend. Not even you."

[Radaney]

but it isn't. Because it was for a greater good, the campaign against the scourge had to continue.

the killing of the mercenaries was evil.

Whenever you can add 'for the greater good', it's evil.

[Deleted]

And this weird misconception that Arthas had some evil tendencies already, is headcanon and they need to go read the Arthas book. Dude was a genuine good person with flaws like any of us. But when it came down to it, he made the tough choices we all know we'd make in the same situation. He's the most relatable character in Warcraft.

"Christie: Invincible?

WoW.com: Right, Invincible.

Christie: I have two major themes that I enjoy when I write. The first one is that I like to explore is, "What makes good people go bad?" The other is the power of the human spirit. I know they're cliche, but oh well. The idea is that Arthas doesn't really like to fail. He's a good kid, but he's not above lying or doing wrong things. With Invincible, he's put in a situation where an animal is completely reliant on him, and he does something wrong which ends in failure for him. He knows he shouldn't have done it, but he sort of lets it happen. He also has a bit of an ego, and he needs to justify what happened to himself.

Once he's fallen in with the Lich King, what does he do? He brings back Invincible. That's his justification. He didn't do anything wrong anymore. If Invincible hadn't died, he wouldn't have been able to raise it in undeath to be his steed later. That's the basis for a lot of what Arthas does. He's trying to justify himself and what he's done. He refuses the fact that he might have failed. This was the ultimate justification."


Right from the mouth of Christie Golden. Arthas, as a borderline psychopath, always refused to that he failed. It happened with Invincible and then the continuous escape of Mal'Ganis.

[Hellrime]

I don't think Arthas was evil. When I think of evil I think of people who do things without remorse. Arthas, in all of the instances suggested, had shreds of doubt or remorse. Even when he was the Lich King there were flickers of Arthas inside it all, realizing the magnitude of what he was doing. Vengeful sure, evil no. However, if I had to pick a point, it was probably killing his father.

[Bathory]

When he weighed the cost of Frostmourne vs the lives of his friends/crew and chose the blade.

Strath was an unwinnable situation, it didn't make him necessarily evil. What it did do, was push Arthas further to a position of isolation. Uther turned on him, Jaina. No one stood by him, and I feel like that was the catalyst for Arthas realizing he didn't need anyone else, that if no one would rally behind him, that he'd do it all himself.

[Zulkhan]

He turned because of his almost religious zeal

Not really. Zealots are devoided of doubts and uncertainty and entirely devote themselves to an higher cause (good or bad is irrelevant, it has to be about more than their personal issues). Arthas was the opposite of that. He was plagued by a dreadful amount of doubts, insecurity, eagerness to prove himself and an overall egocentrism characterizing him in both childhood and adulthood.

Zealots act out of fanatism towards a cause they consider undeniably just. Arthas simply did what he personally desired all the time.

Death Knight Arthas isn't Arthas.

Except he was. A darker, somewhat unnatural version of Arthas but all the sadism, the cruelty and pettiness came from the bottom of Arthas' heart. It didn't come from some other place.

And this weird misconception that Arthas had some evil tendencies already, is headcanon

Yep, and do you think Ner'zhul chose Arthas of all people for shit and giggles? Hell, Darion outright deems Arthas, along Ner'zhul, two of the most ruthless beings ever existed.

Arthas, Good guy who did what needed to be done, but still fell into the Lich King's trap(get it, trap, not temptation)

Arthas didn't do what was needed to be done. Arthas did what Arthas desired. All the damn time. Hell, even the Culling of Stratholme, as much of a controversial decision it was and something surely Arthas didn't perform with joy in his heart, was a decision he literally imposed on others simply because he believed there was no other way or, maybe, was simply the most "safe" and convenient of the decisions at hand.

[thesmall001]

I doubt that. Insecurities, if there are any, weren't the reasion why he turned.

He turned because of his almost religious zeal to finish of the scourge and save his kingdom from its plague. That is the sole reasion why he went to borderline extremes. I thought the culling of stratholme and the ordeal of burning the ships in northrend underlined that.

And i wonder how many people of this board played wc3 when it was actually a thing.

It was pretty clear, that Arthas went into madness because he sacraficed everything for the greater good. Personal sacrafices do not matter much, if you were able safe most of your people and kingdom.

But ultimately arthas got turned by frostmourne when he lost his last parts of humanity, he stopped to care about the living and became the enemy he thought against.

As i said, killing mercenaries that helped him to burn the ships for a greater good to finish off the scourge in northrend was the 1st true evil act he did, while he was still not under the full influence of the LK and still a paladin.

I'm not denying that the ACTS he committed underlined his nature, I'm saying that there was more at play within the characters narrative which lead to those acts. I did play WC3 (though not until shortly after picking up WoW in Vanilla) but I consider the book more in-depth and equally canon to the games. So, for me, that character exploration supersedes the limited development room you get in-game.

And, yeah, I dunno where you're getting religious zeal from as Arthas hardly connected with the light and actively spurned it in all mediums. He never trusted the light to be strong enough to save his people and abandoned it at the first sign of faltering.

[huth]

I don't think Arthas was evil. When I think of evil I think of people who do things without remorse. Arthas, in all of the instances suggested, had shreds of doubt or remorse. Even when he was the Lich King there were flickers of Arthas inside it all, realizing the magnitude of what he was doing. Vengeful sure, evil no. However, if I had to pick a point, it was probably killing his father.

And each time, he had less remorse than before.

[Jastall]

I don't think he turned Evil with a big E until Frostmourne took him over. Over the human campaign he basically went from brash and arrogant to cold and ruthless. Certainly he did some really dodgy and questionable things, but they weren't gratuitous or unnecessarily cruel until he became a Death Knight.

EDIT: However, it is clear that he betrayed all his oaths as a Paladin from Strathholme onwards. So that's definitely a black mark against him.

[Beardless Man]

I'd give it that the moment Arthas truly became evil was when he withdrew Frostmourne.

Much of Arthas' intentions were to secure his homeland. He was eager to do whatever it took to protect his loved ones. The actions in Stratholme was not an easy choice. And it was Arthas' actions that revealed the culprit behind the plagued city. It did kill innocent people, even more so those who were not infected. But it led to Arthas seeking whatever he could to win. When Muradin and Arthas found Frostmourne. They were given plenty of warning, even Muradin explains the blade's evil curse. Yet Arthas still willingly cast aside the warning.

When Muradin was "killed". He didn't feel sad or any remorse for the death caused by his hands. He would eventually fall to the blade's evil yearning. It was Arthas' pursuit against Mal'ganis sparked the flame, but it was his seeking of victory that caused his plummet to his evil state.

[Eucep]

Well he is not 100% evil.

He is like the greatest hero the undead creatures have seen on our planet.
But one of the biggest threats the living creatures have seen.

He wanted to unite the world under 1 banner that of the scourge to destroy the Legion and bring peace in the world.
Then again to get to this point he need to kill everything and ress afterward.

----

But if you want a point where he stopped being a champion of the light (paladin) and became a champion of the death it should have been once he killed his father and killed every living thing in his kingdom, Stratholm he did in the name of the light to stop the plaque i dont consider this evil but just a choice to serve his kingdom best.

Going to disagree with the goal of Arthas. That was not to destroy the Legion. I don't think he even thought about them really. His goal was to become King of everything. Like, in the entire WotLK expansion I saw not a single hint of him even thinking of the Legion. Only of him being King of Azeroth, or at least of what he thought was Azeroth. And if he did consider the Legion, would not be far fetched if his line of thinking would be if everything already is dead, then the Legion has no more interest.

[Tyrannica]

With religous zeal i merely meaned his fanatism to save his kindom at all costs and by going way too far for what he is.(prince and paladin)

He did not act like a paladin at all, or religious to the ligh its not what i wanted to say with that term, but rather more religious to his own kingdom and land. He believed in that strong enough to commit atrocities.

So ultimately what people here are hardly seeing he is not just a selfish person, with some weaknesses, insecurities, pride, arrogance and what else that drove him so far.

Its definately, that he, as the next true king of Lorderon, acted like he was allready the king, he acted as the real ruler, while his rather weak father, King Terenas, did actually nothing at all to save Lorderon from the scourge invasion and was about to die of old age.

He took care of the situation as a souvereign ruler, and the culling of stratholme as well as the extended campaign in northrend indicated that.

So, Arthas was on a kinda holy(for him) mission and this mission was not just personal agendas, he thought its his duty as the rightful king to safe his kingdom at any cost, while beeing surrounded by traitors not acting accordingly to the situation at hand.

Ultimately only this could explain the ordeals at stratholme and the coast of northrend.



As you can see in that dialoge in Stratholme, Arthas told Uther "As your future king, i order you to purge this city!"

Furthermore he commented that uther was a traitor, if he does not obey his orders as the future sovereign.

Arthas is acting like a sovereign ruler. Like many sovereign ruler would. Making tough decisions, based on what is needed for his land. And not what is acceptable before the holy light and is delightful.

And finally:

"Those of you who have the will to save this land follow me"


He made decisions as a sovereign ruler and you got to do tough ones, too. Even though Teranas was technical still the King, he was too weak to rule and Arthas did know that. Terenas did nothing to stop the scourge and did not even listen to Medivh's warnings. He was very unfit for a ruler at this time and would have doomed his own kingdom by ignoring deadly threats!

Arthas on the other side worked for the land and kingdom foremost not his personal agenda that come into play once he turned into a DK, his persona, and human weaknesses in character only are a means how he did present himself to other people, but did not made the tough decisions here.

So yes he was zealotic when it comes to save his home and kingdom and it was what did drive him to the shores of Northrend and burning ships ignoring his king's orders.

I would do the same in Arthas position, because when the scourge are upon you and your people that you are the sovereign future ruler of, turn into zombiegoo, you would too act a bit differently when it come appparent there is no easy way out and prayers to the light alone won't stop the scourge plague and their armies.

Too bad he touched that sword, would be interesting to see what would have become of arthas if he actually acomplished his quest to end the scourge in northrend. I bet he would be a competent King after those events ruling with an iron fist.

[Deleted]

Ship burning. What did he think he was, Feanor?

[Deleted]

Only, Arthas told Jaina to go... Not the other way round. Jaina rejected Kael'thas advances for Arthas instead which may be what you got confused on.

No, I think you're confused here. I'm not talking about romantic advances. I'm talking about when, at the Hallow's End, Jaina promises Arthas that she would never deny him, as in she promises to always stand by his side. When she refuses to aid Arthas in the Culling of Stratholme, she denies him and he takes it as her denying him.
Have you even read the lore book?

[Evangeliste]

No, I think you're confused here. I'm not talking about romantic advances. I'm talking about when, at the Hallow's End, Jaina promises Arthas that she would never deny him, as in she promises to always stand by his side. When she refuses to aid Arthas in the Culling of Stratholme, she denies him and he takes it as her denying him.
Have you even read the lore book?

I see what you mean, I did mean romantically and forgot about the aid she refused.
The only issue with both sides is, what lore books, since we had a few and now I sometimes wonder if the newer Chronicles are going to throw it all out really. Even then, there will be a retcon in Chronicles thanks to incoming 7.3.

[Stormspellz]

falling into the end justifies the means thinking with stratohlme

[Zulkhan]

He believed in that strong enough to commit atrocities

There's no really need of much strength in committing atrocities when your empathy is lacking. Both in WC3 and WoW the sheer coldness and ruthlessness with which he performs the culling of Stratholme is somewhat disturbing.

So ultimately what people here are hardly seeing he is not just a selfish person, with some weaknesses, insecurities, pride, arrogance and what else that drove him so far.

Selfishness is what defines Arthas from start to bottom. Basically every decision of his has a selfish drive in some way. Hell, his very desire to do "good" mostly comes from an eagerness to prove his worth which itself came from pride. And that pride is also what made him feel entitled in imposing his view point on others and be pissed and butthurt on every denial. The other guy who shown all of these things in his character was Garrosh Hellscream. Arthas ain't really that different from the son of Grom, they're probably the two characters that resemble each other the most.

Its definately, that he, as the next true king of Lorderon, acted like he was allready the king, he acted as the real ruler, while his rather weak father, King Terenas, did actually nothing at all to save Lorderon from the scourge invasion and was about to die of old age.

It was Terenas to begin with who sent Arthas to investigate the plague issue. You make it sound like Terenas simply lived in La La Land during the whole thing.

He took care of the situation as a souvereign ruler, and the culling of stratholme as well as the extended campaign in northrend indicated that.

No, the mission to Northrend was dictated by Arthas' desire of vengeance alone. He deemed Mal'Ganis the reason for why he failed on his task to protect the kingdom and for that he wanted the Nathrezim dead at all costs. That's why he rushed to Northrend despite all warnings and invitations to be more careful than that.

while beeing surrounded by traitors not acting accordingly to the situation at hand

They didn't act accordingly to Arthas' tune, that's about it. Arthas wasn't some divine being who knew the absolute truth of all things and perfectly knew the exact, just way to deal with the matter. He simply had an idea in mind and, given his characteristic entitlement, he imposed it.

As you can see in that dialoge in Stratholme, Arthas told Uther "As your future king, i order you to purge this city!"

Furthermore he commented that uther was a traitor, if he does not obey his orders as the future sovereign.

What Arthas said was meaningless. He used his "future sovereignity" to impose his will on the present and that's not how it works. Uther said indeed that he would have not followed Arthas' orders either way but also pointed out that not only Arthas wasn't his king yet but also that Uther was, in fact, still Arthas' own superior as paladin of the Silver Hand. Arthas did not possess the authority to act like something he wasn't, it was just a manner to conveniently validate his entitlement.

Even though Teranas was technical still the King, he was too weak to rule and Arthas did know that

Knew what? It's Terenas who sent Arthas on a mission of investigation. It's Terenas who backed Uther up with a contingent of knights that saved Arthas' very ass. What Arthas did to be seen as a better king? Exterminate the second most populous city of the kingdom? You know, maybe not.

Terenas did nothing to stop the scourge and did not even listen to Medivh's warnings

Neither did Arthas.

Arthas on the other side worked for the land and kingdom foremost not his personal agenda

Arthas' whole life has basically been about his personal agenda. And he went to Northrend with the precise objective of exacting revenge on Mal'Ganis. He said that himself. Enough with denying the evidence.

So yes he was zealotic when it comes to save his home and kingdom and it was what did drive him to the shores of Northrend and burning ships ignoring his king's orders.

Muradin Bronzebeard: You lied to your men and betrayed the mercenaries who fought for you. What's happening to you, Arthas? Is vengeance all that's important to you?

Arthas: Spare me, Muradin. You weren't there to see what Mal'Ganis did to my homeland.

Not only Muradin directly mentioned vengeance but Arthas didn't answer with "no Muradin, all I'm doing is to protect my people against this terrible threat", his answer was instead something akin to "shut up, you can't understand my feelings".

And it's obvious as hell that Arthas attempts to parade an apparent selfless desire to "defend his people" to hide his true feelings on the matter. Going from:

Arthas: I would gladly bear any curse to save my homeland.

to:

Arthas: Damn the men! Nothing shall prevent me from having my revenge, old friend. Not even you.

and then:

Arthas: I will give anything or pay any price, if only you will help me save my people.

when he had to claim the blade. He basically went from blabbering about his homeland's safety to literally not giving a fuck about his soldiers' fate and saying that nothing would have prevented him to get revenge the moment he lost patience and gave an angry (and finally honest) response.

[Dagoth Ur]

falling into the end justifies the means thinking with stratohlme

I think Stratholme wasn't that easy of a choice as everyone think it is.

He had to make hasty decision and he choose what he thought was right.
It's not like you can contain plague that easy and maybe what Arthas did was indeed the right solution although it was grim and sad.

Even Terenas welcomed him warmly after he returned from Northrend despite Stratholme, implying they didn't hold it against him I guess.

Though I don't now if Stratholme was evil act, it probably contributed to degradation of Arthas' mental state.

[Clozer]

lovely arthas discussion

imagine the warcraft movie would have told arthas story instead of guldan/mediv

[Mahourai]

Arthas never became evil. His decision in Stratholme was cold but necessary and his choice to follow Mal'Ganis's taunts to Northrend was perhaps foolish but not morally wrong.

Any decision he made after Northrend was likely under the Lich King's mental influence via Frostmourne - even before his soul was consumed by it - and therefore something he is not really responsible for.

Having Arthas end up in hell was really gross. It basically shows the Warcraft universe is evil and uncaring. So you got brainwashed by a magic sword, tough shit, enjoy eternal torment.