Sylvanas and the Lich King

[Tripzzz]

you are literally waving your arms in the air and screaming "doesn't count"

It really doesn't count. The quote is "As her fate edges closer to the abyss, Slyvanus must decide how far she'll go to protect her people... and whether they're more precious to her than her soul."

It doesn't say what her choice is, only that she will eventually have to make one. It's open-ended. The only fact stated there is that her fate is indeed edging closer to the abyss. Whatever that means. On the other hand, she genuinely feels that the Forsaken "were a bulwark against the infinite. They were to be USED wisely......"

I honestly feel she might end up fading into obscurity. When was the last time the title of warchief had any significance? She has been absent since stormheim. Wtf is she doing? Every Slyvanus fan always wanks how powerful she is, why isn't she putting in work? Anduin has the excuse of being an inexperienced noob. But Slyvanus is supposed to be this "pragmatic genius"(lol trusting a dreadlord, real pragmatic..) who can employ genius "military strategies"(like raising your enemies immediately after dying to fight for you, Scourge style.)

[Sigxy]

Internal conflict is fine, but conflict for the sake of conflict will come off as contrived and people will disassociate.

You mean like the whole "Alliance vs Horde" thing?

[Zulkhan]

You are the one putting a piece of advertisement over story actually shown.

The story shown us Sylvanas honoring the dead among her ranks like any other non-undead leader would do with the soldiers demonstrating courage and loyalty towards the common cause. And the Legion bio says quite clearly that Sylvanas will have to decide what's more important to her, the Forsaken or her soul. It would be a worthless dilemma if she wouldn't actually care about them to some extent.

The forsaken do not need to know about the details. They only need to serve her, as always.

The details lol "working with the Lich King" is not really a "detail", it's the core of the whole deal. And I guarantee Sylvanas' days will be numbered if she starts to deceive her own people.

But go ahead and put a piece of advertisement above in-story character thoughts.

It's called progression. It's canon and valid as anything else. And again, Cataclysm shown some pieces of that progression in the first place.

I don't ever wanna see sylvans die again seeing her sexyness on horde side is what keeps me playing horde

Maybe after a whole decade of Sylvanas threads we've finally found a decent enough reason to kill her.

[Magical Mudcrab]

I don't need to show proof to something that is pure speculation of a possible future. If there was a 100% certain bargain that Sylvanas could make with the Lich King, it wouldn't be speculation, it would be fact.

You know what speculation is, right? Doesn't seen so.

Saying "Well something could maybe happen, kinda" isn't even worth calling speculation. The reason I'm asking for something is because there's nothing that Sylvanas can offer Bolvar, and if you can't think of anything then you're just making some weird potential head-cannon that's not worth discussing.

He had control. The only reason Sylvanas and the Forsaken were freed from him was because he got weaker as the Frozen Throne was losing its powers.

No, he lost control. The Scourge created in Lordaeron were under the control of the Dreadlords and created via the Plague of Undeath, which was something Ner'zhul created using his own magic. Until Sylvanas freed them, the soon-to-be Forsaken were under the control of the Dreadlords.

No, it's not. Necromancers aren't powerful enough to keep the Forsaken running. You'd need a ton of them. Sylvanas needs something stronger than a few necromancers, and even the Val'kyr are not enough.

"Look, I know that Necromancers are able to create intelligent undead, and they themselves can become Liches and effectively eschew the need for rest and becoming more versatile members of the Forsaken as they can return as long as they have a phylactery, meaning they can have a more meaningful role in the war efforts, but I'm going to state that Necromancers aren't powerful enough to re-raise the dead."

Well, if it has a chance to not happen, you can't say it will happen. That's not how it works.

No, it's what will happen should the course of events not be changed; however, the future is mutable. This is why Elisande did not foresee us defeating her, this is why Velen's able to direct us to prevent his visions from occurring.

Again, speculation. Ok, then. You won't get "proof" because I'm not arguing I have "proof", I'm just raising possibilities.

It's funny that you want proof from random possibilities but accept random possibilities as proof...

No, I want a reasonable possibility of what you want to speculate about. Saying "Well, it could happen" is not worth discussing and likely why most people at the start have disengaged.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I don't ever wanna see sylvans die again seeing her sexyness on horde side is what keeps me playing horde besides who else female wise is thereon horde? ya cant count garona.

Time to kill Sylvanas.

Maybe after a whole decade of Sylvanas threads we've finally found a decent enough reason to kill her.

hey!

[DeicideUH]

The story shown us Sylvanas honoring the dead among her ranks like any other non-undead leader would do with the soldiers demonstrating courage and loyalty towards the common cause. And the Legion bio says quite clearly that Sylvanas will have to decide what's more important to her, the Forsaken or her soul. It would be a worthless dilemma if she wouldn't actually care about them to some extent.

You know she's always putting up a front of respectability, that's how she got to be adored by her people. Doesn't mean those feelings are genuine. It's protocol. She does that because she knows she can't be a bitch or she will risk losing support.

The details lol "working with the Lich King" is not really a "detail", it's the core of the whole deal. And I guarantee Sylvanas' days will be numbered if she starts to deceive her own people.

S.P.E.C.U.L.A.T.I.O.N.
And based on what we know. I don't know why you insist on trying to portray as a better person than she really is. There a whole fricking story detailing her innermost thoughts, for Pete's sake!

It's called progression. It's canon and valid as anything else. And again, Cataclysm shown some pieces of that progression in the first place.

No, it's called advertisement. Here, now that I'm home I could access the site and copy the text.

The Forsaken's ruthless leader is a formidable champion of her people. But with the Burning Legion's invasion, the stakes for the Dark Lady have never been higher. Should Sylvanas perish, her demise will be the beginning of her eternal damnation. All that stand between her and this doom are her Val'kyr, yet few of these spirit guardians remain. As her fate edges closer to the abyss, Sylvanas must decide how far she'll go to protect her people... and whether they're more precious to her than her soul.

That's not even a story, it's hinting at a story. It's not even a statement, it ends with an open-ended question. It's not "Sylvanas will do anything to protect her people", or "Sylvanas has chosen her people over her soul". It's "What will Sylvanas choose?".

And, considering that she's focusing on getting more Val'kyr, which is the only thing keeping her away from damnation, rather than the Legion is a big hint of what's more important to her.

[Friendlyimmolation]

That's not even a story, it's hinting at a story. It's not even a statement, it ends with an open-ended question. It's not "Sylvanas will do anything to protect her people", or "Sylvanas has chosen her people over her soul". It's "What will Sylvanas choose?".

"Sylvanas doesn't care about her people anything more than a shield, allow me to prove this by showing something that outright disproves me"

And, considering that she's focusing on getting more Val'kyr, which is the only thing keeping her away from damnation, rather than the Legion is a big hint of what's more important to her.

its not like the two are mutually exclusive immortal Sylvanas and her Forsaken would be able to take on the legion alot easier. Its not like she ignores the legion either, she tells you to claim the aegis.

[Dartz1979]

Gut Sylvanas and Jaina are my waifus theres no need to kill them!

[DeicideUH]

"Look, I know that Necromancers are able to create intelligent undead, and they themselves can become Liches and effectively eschew the need for rest and becoming more versatile members of the Forsaken as they can return as long as they have a phylactery, meaning they can have a more meaningful role in the war efforts, but I'm going to state that Necromancers aren't powerful enough to re-raise the dead."

Mockery is easy to do. It's harder to find actual necromancers that can do that. Most liches were created by the Lich King. Kel'thuzad required the Sunwell to be resurrected. And I'd love to see how many necromancers created intelligent undead in lore. I think the most powerful one was Mordent Fel, which was able to become a Lich on his own, but his servants were mindless (not to mention that he lived in a cursed place where undead happened "naturally".

Powerful necromancers are few and far between. Even the ones in the Scourge had the help of the Lich King to bolster their powers. If there's some guy capable of making armies of intelligent independent undead on his own, I'd love to know why he isn't doing so right now.

No, it's what will happen should the course of events not be changed; however, the future is mutable. This is why Elisande did not foresee us defeating her, this is why Velen's able to direct us to prevent his visions from occurring.

You can affirm "will happen" (boldened, even!) and in the same sentence say the future is mutable, sorry. That's a pretty glaring flaw in logic.
Oh, you put a condition! if "the course of events not be changed". And what says it hasn't changed already? Didn't the vision show Azeroth dead before the next Legion invasion? Guess what! Azeroth was not dead when the Legion came, and it seems like we will be vanquishing the Legion in this expansion.

No, I want a reasonable possibility of what you want to speculate about. Saying "Well, it could happen" is not worth discussing and likely why most people at the start have disengaged.

Anything I said in this thread is reasonable.

Sylvanas isn't above doing dirty things to get her goals. Fact.
Sylvanas most important goal is to avoid damnation. Fact.
Sylvanas needs forsaken to keep her safe. Fact.
Sylvanas needs the Val'kyr to keep creating forsaken. Fact.
Sylvanas is willing to make deals with devilish creatures in order to get what she wants. Fact.
There's a new Lich King which Sylvanas has no personal vendetta against. Fact.
This new Lich King does have the powers Sylvanas needs. Fact.
It's possible that Sylvanas and Lich King could make a deal. <---- Speculation based on facts.

It's pretty reasonable. You're just confusing "reasonable" for "things I like". Just because you don't like a possibility does not mean it can't happen.

Dislike my speculation if you will, but you can't say at all that it's unreasonable.

[Tripzzz]

"Sylvanas doesn't care about her people anything more than a shield, allow me to prove this by showing something that outright disproves me"



its not like the two are mutually exclusive immortal Sylvanas and her Forsaken would be able to take on the legion alot easier. Its not like she ignores the legion either, she tells you to claim the aegis.

How does it disprove it? It doesn't disprove anything since it doesn't prove anything one way or the other. It just implies both are possibilities.

[Friendlyimmolation]

How does it disprove it? It doesn't disprove anything since it doesn't prove anything one way or the other. It just implies both are possibilities.

Because He was trying to say that she cares only for them as a shield. If she did, the entire choice laid before her in the page wouldn't have to be there.

[Mehrunes]

Oh yeah, thread that starts with "sylvanas" and talks about dealing with sylvanas.
This is gonna be great.

It even mentions the Lich King in the title! Double shit show fresh and exciting narrative points.

But OK, improving the thread.

Sylvanas will steal one of Legion's spaceships and turn it into a Blight-powered Death Star. Then she'll try to finally eradicate all life on Azeroth as she always totally planned, obviously starting with the Forsaken. Alas, that will turn out to be her undoing. Since Sylvanas totally mind controlled the Forsaken, killing their mortal shells will release their spirits from the hold o her runebra, Bikinimourne. And as they go to the void to which they were obviously damned for being undead, the very Great Dark Beyond itself will feel a great disturbance in the Light, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced. And then Sylvanas will be turned into a pillar of salt and peace will have been brought to Azeroth. The end.

[Tripzzz]

Because He was trying to say that she cares only for them as a shield. If she did, the entire choice laid before her in the page wouldn't have to be there.

If she only cared for them as a shield, the choices laid out in the legion bio would be exactly the same. The only difference would be that we would know the answer. Since the answer is never clearly stated, we can only guess based on her previously established lore.

[Friendlyimmolation]

If she only cared for them as a shield, the choices laid out in the legion bio would be exactly the same. The only difference would be that we would know the answer. Since the answer is never clearly stated, we can only guess based on her previously established lore.

Yes? That doesn't make what he said right though.

[Tripzzz]

Yes? That doesn't make what he said right though.

Slyvanus did say the forsaken were a bulwark against the infinite. So he's not exactly wrong.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Slyvanus did say the forsaken were a bulwark against the infinite. So he's not exactly wrong.

Once again, the story did not stop there, we see her treat the forsaken like any other leader treats their people. Second, the bio once again would not state what it stated if it wasnt even a question.

[Redroniksre]

Honestly i think Sylvannas has changed from simply using the Forsaken to caring about them. You don't necessarily need to narrate her thoughts for it to be considered canon, hell i think the cinematic where she became Warchief was enough for me to see her as widening her view of the Horde in total as he people as well.

[Tripzzz]

Once again, the story did not stop there, we see her treat the forsaken like any other leader treats their people. Second, the bio once again would not state what it stated if it wasnt even a question.

I'm not saying it isn't even a question. You think she definitely cares, he thinks she really doesn't. I think both are equally possible.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I'm not saying it isn't even a question. You think she definitely cares, he thinks she really doesn't. I think both are equally possible.

Exactly . There are some definite forsaken shes would care about (nathanos, maybe her rangers) but other than that, its up in the air.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Sylvanas is not a villain apply directly to the forehead.
Sylvanas is not a villain apply directly to the forehead.