Sylvanas and the Lich King

[Tripzzz]

Honestly i think Sylvannas has changed from simply using the Forsaken to caring about them. You don't necessarily need to narrate her thoughts for it to be considered canon, hell i think the cinematic where she became Warchief was enough for me to see her as widening her view of the Horde in total as he people as well.

Sure she cares about them more than she used to. But does she care about them more than her own soul? That is the question. I mean I care about my car, my house, and my dog. But if there was a choice between me dying or my dog dying, my car blowing up, and my house catching on fire, I'm picking the latter. The bio clearly says her fate is edging closer to the abyss. That doesn't sound good for her future.

[Mehrunes]

To me we still haven't had that Sylvanas and Genn charade finish. What's even weirder is somehow Genn knew what was going on since he said "You took away my future, now I take away yours."

That's not random. How the fudge did he know when he wasn't privy to the bargain Helya had with Sylvanas? Did he know what the lantern was? Did he know who Eyir was or could do? Too many questions, no where near enough answers.

I don't think the Alliance quests showed him having some intimate knowledge of her plot. Just him getting her trail and learning she's up to something important for the Forsaken. He was waiting in the rafters of the room with Eyir though, so he could have heard her talking about Val'kyr being hers (plus whatever she said prior to the cinematic) and connected the dots.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Honestly i think Sylvannas has changed from simply using the Forsaken to caring about them. You don't necessarily need to narrate her thoughts for it to be considered canon, hell i think the cinematic where she became Warchief was enough for me to see her as widening her view of the Horde in total as her people as well.

Boom, thank you. Close the thread please.

[Racthoh]

Oh yeah, thread that starts with "sylvanas" and talks about dealing with sylvanas.
This is gonna be great.

sylvanas threads are the best yo

[Tripzzz]

Boom, thank you. Close the thread please.

Lmao. Do you care about your belongings? Of course you do. Now do you care about them more than yourself? I don't think so.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Mockery is easy to do. It's harder to find actual necromancers that can do that. Most liches were created by the Lich King. Kel'thuzad required the Sunwell to be resurrected. And I'd love to see how many necromancers created intelligent undead in lore. I think the most powerful one was Mordent Fel, which was able to become a Lich on his own, but his servants were mindless (not to mention that he lived in a cursed place where undead happened "naturally".

Powerful necromancers are few and far between. Even the ones in the Scourge had the help of the Lich King to bolster their powers. If there's some guy capable of making armies of intelligent independent undead on his own, I'd love to know why he isn't doing so right now.

Kel'thuzad was a special circumstance; he was resurrected using the Sunwell, and this would not have been replicated. The rules for lichdom likely follow the same for other fantasy genres (like D&D) where each is unique to the individual. You're right that the Lich King grants lichdom to individuals, but he selects those to elevate based on zeal and loyalty. Liches such as Novos were granted lichdom for carving out their own heart and presenting it to him. However, Liches like Timolain and Instructor Chillheart were able to rise into lichdom while not associated with Arthas' Scourge.

The necromancers of Scholomance in Cataclysm were raising the dead en masse and were creating intelligent undead (a la Rattlegore, Jandice Barov, etc.). Raising yourself and others into undeath is relatively trivial. However, we actively seek out and kill those creating undead for the purposes of amassing power, let alone the Argent Crusade/Dawn working towards exterminating the undead and necromancers that have potential.

You can affirm "will happen" (boldened, even!) and in the same sentence say the future is mutable, sorry. That's a pretty glaring flaw in logic.
Oh, you put a condition! if "the course of events not be changed". And what says it hasn't changed already? Didn't the vision show Azeroth dead before the next Legion invasion? Guess what! Azeroth was not dead when the Legion came, and it seems like we will be vanquishing the Legion in this expansion.

I really don't think you are getting anything relating to future predictions in WoW.

Anything I said in this thread is reasonable.

Sylvanas isn't above doing dirty things to get her goals. Fact.
Sylvanas most important goal is to avoid damnation. Fact.
Sylvanas needs forsaken to keep her safe. Fact.
Sylvanas needs the Val'kyr to keep creating forsaken. Fact.
Sylvanas is willing to make deals with devilish creatures in order to get what she wants. Fact.
There's a new Lich King which Sylvanas has no personal vendetta against. Fact.
This new Lich King does have the powers Sylvanas needs. Fact.
It's possible that Sylvanas and Lich King could make a deal. <---- Speculation based on facts.

It's pretty reasonable. You're just confusing "reasonable" for "things I like". Just because you don't like a possibility does not mean it can't happen.

Dislike my speculation if you will, but you can't say at all that it's unreasonable.

I don't think you've read a single thing I've posted. I was actively supportive of the idea of a civil war within the Forsaken to overthrow Sylvanas as a fallout of her having any relation with the Lich King and any other potential fallout of such a union. I am supportive of speculation relating to potential changes in the lore and character development, but I am not supportive of ridiculous things occurring without reason.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't think the Alliance quests showed him having some intimate knowledge of her plot. Just him getting her trail and learning she's up to something important for the Forsaken. He was waiting in the rafters of the room with Eyir though, so he could have heard her talking about Val'kyr being hers (plus whatever she said prior to the cinematic) and connected the dots.

In the Sylvanas cinematic Genn mentions immortality so apparently he knows. How he learned, I have no idea. Regardless It's a bit jarring that arc didn't get resolved.

[Mehrunes]

In the Sylvanas cinematic Genn mentions immortality so apparently he knows. How he learned, I have no idea. Regardless It's a bit jarring that arc didn't get resolved.

Which he mentions after Sylvanas' dialogue. So could still be covered by him connecting the dots.

[Zulkhan]

You know she's always putting up a front of respectability, that's how she got to be adored by her people. Doesn't mean those feelings are genuine. It's protocol. She does that because she knows she can't be a bitch or she will risk losing support.

Or maybe she actually respects those people, you know, as they sacrificed themselves for the common cause.

Your whole argument here is based on deliberate conjecture and projection of your own opinion of Sylvanas on Sylvanas herself. "Doesn't mean those feelings are genuine" do not mean those could indeed be. On the end of the day, she wasn't really forced to do that and no one would have really complained about it. It's not like she would have looked like a deliberate asshole or something.

S.P.E.C.U.L.A.T.I.O.N.
And based on what we know. I don't know why you insist on trying to portray as a better person than she really is. There a whole fricking story detailing her innermost thoughts, for Pete's sake!

I'm not entirely sure what you tried to tell here. But you know, there's a whole sea between being brutally honest about how you feel towards something and being a deceiving little shit. Because, until now, Sylvanas shown tons of the first and none of the latter, the only exception being Garithos, someone she wanted to get out of the way in the first place.

Besides, deceiving the Forsaken is just a bad choice. It doesn't matter what you think of Sylvanas, there's no way in hell she'll ruin all the reputation she gathered after all these years by lying to her people, it would just put her in a dangerous position that could cost her the Forsaken permanently. It would be a very reckless and risky course of action.

That's not even a story, it's hinting at a story. It's not even a statement, it ends with an open-ended question. It's not "Sylvanas will do anything to protect her people", or "Sylvanas has chosen her people over her soul". It's "What will Sylvanas choose?".

I'm afraid the point flew over your head. It's not about the choice she has to make. It's about the existence of that dilemma in the first place. If she wouldn't give a shit she wouldn't have to make a choice to begin with.

And, considering that she's focusing on getting more Val'kyr, which is the only thing keeping her away from damnation, rather than the Legion is a big hint of what's more important to her.

You somehow forgot how Sylvanas specifically spoke of the Forsaken's inability to procreate just before sailing from Durotar to Stormheim. It's rather obvious that Val'kyr are supposed to play a beneficial role on that regard.

Hell, right before entering Eyir's vault she says:

"It seems that you are full of surprises, <name>. With the blessing of the Valkyra queen, you have opened a path that will shape the destiny of Azeroth.

I invite you to bear witness, for today a new day dawns on the Forsaken!"

Of course you're entirely free to argue about respectability, protocol and shit but for now, Sylvanas' progression is nothing but coherent with the premise.

Sylvanas will steal one of Legion's spaceships and turn it into a Blight-powered Death Star. Then she'll try to finally eradicate all life on Azeroth as she always totally planned, obviously starting with the Forsaken. Alas, that will turn out to be her undoing. Since Sylvanas totally mind controlled the Forsaken, killing their mortal shells will release their spirits from the hold o her runebra, Bikinimourne. And as they go to the void to which they were obviously damned for being undead, the very Great Dark Beyond itself will feel a great disturbance in the Light, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced. And then Sylvanas will be turned into a pillar of salt and peace will have been brought to Azeroth. The end.

I feel violated now.

[Mehrunes]

I feel violated now.

Can't handle greatness all that well?

[Zulkhan]

Can't handle greatness all that well?

There's just as much greatness I can handle without giving myself a break.

[Mehrunes]

There's just as much greatness I can handle without giving myself a break.

I can suggest the lecture of Tripzzz's posts to balance it out.

As long as blizzard does not build up a decent replacement for her that becomes the new face for the forsaken whatever she does hopefully does not end up with her dying. It is bad enough they utterly screwed up with Vol'jin and the darkspear.

Technically, in Darkspear's case they failed in building up the replaced as well. Fail'jin may have had a lot of story spotlight by Darkspear standards, but overall it was still somewhat little.

[Combatbutler]

Technically, in Darkspear's case they failed in building up the replaced as well. Fail'jin may have had a lot of story spotlight by Darkspear standards, but overall it was still somewhat little.

The fun thing is trolls in general are one of the most fleshed out races in the entire warcraft universe, except for that one faction that is playable they have almost nothing.

[Mehrunes]

She was willing to deal with Helya. Why not Bolvar?

Specialy if the deal requires only an alliance, not servitude.

Because contrary to your opening post, Sylvanas could care less about a new Lich King. Before she regained her composure and went back to her emo state and her plans to kill herself, she raged at the fact, hitting the Frozen Throne so hard the ice started to split.

[Zulkhan]

The fun thing is trolls in general are one of the most fleshed out races in the entire warcraft universe, except for that one faction that is playable they have almost nothing.

Well, for Blizzard being "one of the most fleshed out races" somehow means "put dat villain hat there" while leaving the scraps to the ones rude enough to not become loot pinatas.

[Combatbutler]

Well, for Blizzard being "one of the most fleshed out races" somehow means "put dat villain hat there" while leaving the scraps to the ones rude enough to not become loot pinatas.

Yup, we did beat the shit out of them ,but we learned a great deal about them as well, I would have loved if the darkspear had picked up some remnants of the other tribes and actually build a troll civilization, not some sorry hovels on the echo isles.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Yup, we did beat the shit out of them ,but we learned a great deal about them as well, I would have loved if the darkspear had picked up some remnants of the other tribes and actually build a troll civilization, not some sorry hovels on the echo isles.

It wouldn't of bothered me if there were Zandalari that were basically disgruntled and decided to back the Darkspear Tribe and join the Horde. I theorized that way back in Mist when we saw the Zandalari trolls. Nice option for a subrace to.

[DeicideUH]

Your whole argument here is based on deliberate conjecture and projection of your own opinion of Sylvanas on Sylvanas herself. "Doesn't mean those feelings are genuine" do not mean those could indeed be. On the end of the day, she wasn't really forced to do that and no one would have really complained about it. It's not like she would have looked like a deliberate asshole or something.

"But what of the humans?" a young alchemist asked as the din faded. Sylvanas recognized him from the previous night's fighting. A cool intelligence flickered in his eye sockets: Lydon was his name. Already he'd come to embrace his situation, referring to humans as if they were a separate race; she made a mental note to make use of him.

"The humans will serve their purpose," she answered, her mind already calculating. "They believe they are liberating the city. Let them fight on our behalf and spend themselves for our gain. They are"—she stumbled upon an analogy she'd used before—"arrows in our quiver."

The heaving mass of undead clapped and coughed and hacked gleefully in assent. Sylvanas regarded the whole mob coldly. And so are you, she thought to herself. Arrows I will aim at Arthas's heart.

-------------------

The army of undead that surrounded and protected the Dark Lady was still hers, body and soul. But they were no longer arrows in her quiver, not anymore. They were a bulwark against the infinite. They were to be used wisely, and no fool orc would squander them while she still walked the world of the living.

-------------------------

Now, I ask of you: can you ever see Sylvanas sacrifice herself for her people?

We do see her as a cold manipulative person that uses people for her own gain. She no longer views the Forsaken as expendable just because she needs them. THis is not "caring" for someone, it's caring someone's usefulness to you.

Imagine these people:
"I care for my wife because she makes sex with me."
"I care for my parents because they pay my bills."
"I care for my people because they pay taxes."
None of this is true caring. If Sylvanas no longer needed the Forsaken, she wouldn't give a damn about them being slaughtered.

Varian remained behind to save the Alliance. Sylvanas would leave all the Forsaken behind if that was essential for her survival.

I see lots of people saying that she's changed, but there's not a single moment in the story since then that we have seen a change of heart. You point text that she's complimenting her subjects. That is not being caring, it's being smart, it's playing their hearts, it's to feign sincerity.

"She changed". Well, point me where. Show her thoughts. Show me her change of heart. Text in which she's addressing her subjects is just what she wants others to believe, not what she really believes. You won't retain loyal followers willing to die for you by mistreating them.

I'm not entirely sure what you tried to tell here. But you know, there's a whole sea between being brutally honest about how you feel towards something and being a deceiving little shit. Because, until now, Sylvanas shown tons of the first and none of the latter, the only exception being Garithos, someone she wanted to get out of the way in the first place.

I just pointed out that she cared as much about the Forsaken as she did about Garithos.

Besides, deceiving the Forsaken is just a bad choice.

She's been doing it since the beginning. Why stop now?

It doesn't matter what you think of Sylvanas, there's no way in hell she'll ruin all the reputation she gathered after all these years by lying to her people

Riiiiiiiight. She would never lie to her people!

it would just put her in a dangerous position that could cost her the Forsaken permanently. It would be a very reckless and risky course of action.

Well, it's only a problem if the lies are exposed.

I'm afraid the point flew over your head. It's not about the choice she has to make. It's about the existence of that dilemma in the first place. If she wouldn't give a shit she wouldn't have to make a choice to begin with.

You somehow forgot how Sylvanas specifically spoke of the Forsaken's inability to procreate just before sailing from Durotar to Stormheim. It's rather obvious that Val'kyr are supposed to play a beneficial role on that regard.

Hell, right before entering Eyir's vault she says:

"It seems that you are full of surprises, <name>. With the blessing of the Valkyra queen, you have opened a path that will shape the destiny of Azeroth.

I invite you to bear witness, for today a new day dawns on the Forsaken!"

Of course you're entirely free to argue about respectability, protocol and shit but for now, Sylvanas' progression is nothing but coherent with the premise.

She uses her people as a shield to protect her from dying. It's within her ultimate goals to have more people protecting her.

The group of val'kyr resurrects Sylvanas, sacrificing themselves in the process.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: I saw... only darkness.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: And as I drifted towards nothingness, a brilliant light appeared, then another, and another... My dear val'kyr.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: I know now - beyond a shadow of a doubt - that the val'kyr are our future.

That's the scene when she dies again and three val'kyr sacrifice themselves for her. This is the whole point about getting more val'kyr so she can have more forsaken. She's not doing anything "for her people", she's doing for herself.

[Mehrunes]

Yup, we did beat the shit out of them ,but we learned a great deal about them as well, I would have loved if the darkspear had picked up some remnants of the other tribes and actually build a troll civilization, not some sorry hovels on the echo isles.

And abandon the proud Darkspear tradition of using their feces as the building material? Never! They already abandoned cannibalism for the Horde. You're asking for too much.

You are the one putting a piece of advertisement over story actually shown.
Yes, stories progress, but here's zero story development about Sylvanas having a change of heart. As far as story was told, that didn't happen, and Stormheim only shows how far she's willing to go to secure her own immortality.

Data from WoW's official page is kinda canon by default. Leader bios are in story category of the page. Saurfang has been confirmed as the leader of the Orcs through it. And as for Sylvanas, at every point in the Legion storyline she talks about her plans, she talks about securing future for all Forsaken so *shrug*.

[DeicideUH]

Data from WoW's official page is kinda canon by default. Leader bios are in story category of the page. Saurfang has been confirmed as the leader of the Orcs through it. And as for Sylvanas, at every point in the Legion storyline she talks about her plans, she talks about securing future for all Forsaken so *shrug*.

They were a bulwark against the infinite. They were to be used wisely
You can pretend this is not true all you will. It won't seize being true.
The forsaken are an asset for her. Just resources, to be spent carefully. She just wants more resources at her disposal.
What bothers you is that this is true, no matter how much you try to color it pretty.