Kil'jaeden hc time to give up?

[TOM_RUS]

This boss is heavily overtuned for HC audience. Something like this should have been mythic boss, not HC one... HC should never be single fail = wipe. This is what mythic for. Simple fix would be completely remove dot debuff from failed armageddon soak and boss would be perfect for HC. We are at 100 pulls and kill isn't even close. Goroth Mythic only took half of that and rewards better loot. There's something clearly wrong with KJ difficulty/reward ratio. So far hardest HC boss in wow history.

[l10f]

I think KJ and GD are on similar levels of overall difficulty. It took our guild the same amount of time to kill either of these bosses (end of 2nd week). Yes, Armageddon is extremely punishing and if one player messes up, it's a wipe, but outside of that, none of the other abilities are as threatening as an empowered eye or bonds. During that one combo on GD p2 where bonds then empowered eyes went out at the same time, it was very difficult in terms of DPS and healing requirement, as well as the coordination of the range DPS to not lose a single person, whereas the hardest combo in KJ P2, the adds + armageddon + focused dreadflame doesn't kill anyone even if you only had 3~4 people get in the laser. Even in P3 if you spawn fire right in the middle or get hit by obelisk, it's not as bad as an empowered eye or fire going out of control in GD.

They are difficult in different ways. KJ has one simple mechanic where if you fail, you wipe, but otherwise the damage is more forgiving than GD, which didn't really have a way to wipe the entire raid from a single fail, but was much more likely to kill a member or two here and there, which snowballed in p3 where you didn't have enough people to kill the eye in time or soak souls. They are difficult in different ways, but I would argue due to above reasons that their overall difficulty is very similar.

It also follows the pattern that the final boss on heroic is about equally difficult as first boss on mythic. KJ and Goroth are very similar in overall difficulty levels, as was GD ans Skorpyron.

[Radio]

I find one of the biggest sources of Armageddon fails is the "someone else will surely soak that" attitude, especially with melee. Said attitude gets reinforced when a few melee all simultaneously rush out of melee range for the same lone swirl and all but one have to return disappointed having used their movement CDs, or when a ranged suddenly blinks into place when they're almost there.

As a WW I just have to be proactive and FSK out instantly to minimise the chance that someone else will invest into rushing for the same spot and wasting their time.

It's basically the Krosus embers of Tomb.

[casserole]

This boss is heavily overtuned for HC audience. Something like this should have been mythic boss, not HC one... HC should never be single fail = wipe. This is what mythic for. Simple fix would be completely remove dot debuff from failed armageddon soak and boss would be perfect for HC. We are at 100 pulls and kill isn't even close. Goroth Mythic only took half of that and rewards better loot. There's something clearly wrong with KJ difficulty/reward ratio. So far hardest HC boss in wow history.

Goroth is a simple throughput check, with very little mechanics/personal responsibility.

KJ has a very lenient throughput check and is mostly a mechanics/personal responsibility/coordination check.

If you can kill Goroth you should definitely be able to kill KJ. Have you considered cutting down on the raid size (we found 14 to be ideal).

[Yunaqt]

H KJ is mathematically impossible until 2 - 5 resets worth of gear.
Unless of course you're from Invective

[mhdoe]

Looks like the high damage people do not know how to do mechanics and just tunnel the whole fight.

[Laerrus]

I do not even recall how many month i wiped to Lady and Kael.

We wiped on Vashj for around a month (12 raid nights) before we finally downed her.

[Deleted]

If Armageddon is the red swirlies you find on the ground that is literally the easiest mechanic of the fight.

Yes you get a temporary debuff if you soak 2 in a row that ticks for some damage and it stacks, but people should have a brain and say: "do I have a debuff? No? Then I soak." Spread across the room ready for swirlies and you are golden. Tanks and people with immunities soak big swirlies.

[Sylv_]

L-o-L.........................

[A-sayo]

The main problem of the fight isn't the Boss abilities by themselves : it's the abilities overlapping that the raid has to manage accordingly (for example: Armageddon + Aoe, Armageddon + Beam, Fel Claws + rainbowponey...What ? :<). Classes with immunities make the fight easier, though (just like Avatar).
Since the fight requires a lot of communication and personal decisions, it makes it harder to do with pugs (cf. DLC 588).

[Vampiregenesis]

Lol this thread is irrelevant now , i killed him few hours ago in a pug with 2-3-11 , after thousands wipes he is dead.... it was a disgusting experience but i think i could have done some things to make it better, learned a couple of things for future raids.

I still think this boss is really shit , the wipes felt so bad , wow need more power fights and less mechanics , i can accept wiping because the group is weak but wiping because someone spaced out and forgot to soak feels like masochism

[Deleted]

I think kj is a bit overtuned on heroic but not very mechanically complicated. Just relax, you'll get it.
Side note. Serious question. Why do people put a space before a comma so often around here? Is this a European thing? I've never seen it once in game or anywhere around the forums but here it's incredibly common.

Def not an european thing, just retards being retards.

[Marrilaife]

it was a disgusting experience

That about sums up 90% of the pugs out there.

I remember a friend of mine spent 6h straight in a hc Gul'dan pug exchanging people over and again until he got his curve. So nothing new.

Goroth is a simple throughput check, with very little mechanics/personal responsibility.

Depends do you mean Goroth hc or mythic (cuz ppl pug him on mythic too), on mythic he has the red circle ppl need to soak, so again, lazy pugs don't soak = wipe. Otherwise it's not a complicated mechanic. It's just the Krosus swirl syndrome all over again, indeed.

The goal of a pug is to kill bosses and collect loot, not top the dps meters then wipe to some raid mechanic, but every tier the same story repeats itself.

[Kalador]

I feel KJ is a bit to hard for hero.. the Armageddon mechanic feels a lot more mythic than heroic as it is very punishing for personal responsibility. I don't mind it that much tho, I just see this fight being a giant wall for many guild and pugs.

For me the fight died in 2nd intermission... the shadow phase is just fucking stupid. It's not hard but just rly annoying and it destroys the flow of the fight.

[Arainie]

I feel KJ is a bit to hard for hero.. the Armageddon mechanic feels a lot more mythic than heroic as it is very punishing for personal responsibility. I don't mind it that much tho, I just see this fight being a giant wall for many guild and pugs.

For me the fight died in 2nd intermission... the shadow phase is just fucking stupid. It's not hard but just rly annoying and it destroys the flow of the fight.

I mean, I'm confused with what you mean by "too hard for heroic". Armageddon is simply soaking stuff and that sort of mechanic has been around for expansions now. Too hard for heroic would to me mean requiring very good coordination, cooldown assignments to have any chance of surviving certain phases or things like complex movement as a group. Consider chaining the lightning perfectly on Hagara Heroic in Dragon Soul, that's a prime example of a mechanic I consider too hard for current heroic (since Heroic back then was the equivalent of today's Mythic).

[Kalador]

I mean, I'm confused with what you mean by "too hard for heroic". Armageddon is simply soaking stuff and that sort of mechanic has been around for expansions now. Too hard for heroic would to me mean requiring very good coordination, cooldown assignments to have any chance of surviving certain phases or things like complex movement as a group. Consider chaining the lightning perfectly on Hagara Heroic in Dragon Soul, that's a prime example of a mechanic I consider too hard for current heroic (since Heroic back then was the equivalent of today's Mythic).

This is only my opinion and i can understand why some people might not agree but for me heroic should be something you can clear with small amount of brute forcing. Where a failure to deal with a mechanic result in a couple of death. Where insta-wipe mechanic are easy to deal with (add interrupt on Gul'dan).
Armageddon for me is a mechanic that would fit perfectly in mythic, the soaking part is okay but to me the fact that at any point in the fight 1 missed soak result in a full raid whip is to punishing for hero, especially with the fact that the mechanic overlaps a lot with other position based stuff.

I'm not saying they should nerf it, like i said in my other post i think it's a mechanic that is a bit to harsh for hero and that it will make this boss a bigger wall than what i think a hero boss should be...

i personally disliked the fight but it's mostly because intermission 2 is to gimmicky and doesn't seem to fit in the fight super well... Phase 3 is also very boring...

[Deleted]

In pugs this is a constant shitshow of replacing failers after 1 try. After a few hours you're left with a group of people with a brain and you'll kill it.

Soaking has been in the game for a long time, but multiple people responsible for soaking and not doing so resulting in, likely, a wipe hasn't been. This is too much for pugs.

Poor pug raiders.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

This boss is really easy. All it does is kick people squarely in the face that are meter whores more or less. Melees that refuse to run out or range to soak a small. People tunneling on rotations and forgetting to run out to use there immunity on a big. I mean that is like 90% of it. You must absolutely move and if that hurts your chart and you refuse -- wipe it up. Sadly the culture in this game is so chart centric that most people won't do it because they realize no one will be able to call them out for not running out to get a small when 4 others didn't either and if anyone is going to be kicked it is going to be "WTF 490k melee hunter! You suck!" (meanwhile they were running out, soaking with turtle out of range twice, and got squarely shit on for it).

[insomniac1969]

I seriously dont know what to do anymore , i killed guldan hc week 2 but kil'jaeden is the true aids , i have done few p3 on him and the times i didnt was a wipe to armaggedon , literally nothing else is hard about this fight , i gathered the best possible group 6 dps out of 11 were doing 920k+ and the others 800k+ and still wiped a ton to armaggedon , every now and then someone moves out too early or something is left unsoaked , i myself as a tank soak every single time and i help as much as possible , im close to get a mental breakdown to this ability , im almost immortal on felclaw and still losing to this shit , it has become unbearable , healers and tanks dont fail anymore but armaggedon does , congrats to blizzard for thinking such a shit ability which is impossible to coordinate properly and has a ton of rng in it aswell and also favors some classes over others.

Did it in an 11 Man. 2 Healers. Pretty easy.

[Celestraza]

I'll admit that KJ HC is overtuned for small groups (less people to cover area's and soak).
And there were reports of tank dmg being overtuned (especially for some tank classes).
And I can understand deaths from overlapping abilities in p2/p3.

But Armageddon can not possibly be the issue here.
Just assign 2-3 players to each quadrant and have a few free for all with mobile classes like mages being particularly responsive to bad spawn locations.