(Possible Spoilers?) Jaina Proudmoore Betrays The Alliance?

[Mehrunes]

So what? Both sides had millitia to protect themselves (it is normal when you have neighbours who are danger to you). You again, look at the bad things from the other side and ignore your side. And who cares who gave order? As i said, she did it for many other things than just obeying.

Look at all the times I said it was bad. Wait... That's fucking zero and you're projecting some shit really hard right now.

That damned pro-alliance wowpedia says this:
''The people of Hillsbrad were constantly threatened by the forces of High Executor Darthalia at Tarren Mill, being repeatedly attacked in the questline H [24] Battle of Hillsbrad by the forces of the Forsaken. Peasants, farmers, and other members of the human supply line and infrastructure were especially threatened. Many of the farmers were very capable of fighting back, and staged ambushes on the undead forces, according to the quest H [28] Dangerous!. Blacksmith Verringtan and his apprentices supplied weapons to the local militia.''

And the quest description of Battle of Hillsbrad says:
''Stand at attention while addressing me, <class>.

I am under direct command of Varimathras. We are to quell the human infestation until our apothecaries can develop the new plague.

Our information leads us to believe that the town of Hillsbrad is vulnerable to attack. Your first assignment is aimed at disrupting their food supply and infrastructure.

Travel west. Raid the northernmost farms of Hillsbrad Fields. Make sure that the landowners, Farmer Ray and Farmer Getz, are executed as well.''


Those damned humans, not wanting accept poor forsaken something something

And what the wowpedia doesn't say is who started the hostilities. Because it's unknown.

[Orby]

Is there a way to side with her... Cos I know I am not going to kill her

[Traveler Voltin]

You mean the crap he pulled by stpping Sylvanas from having an infinite army and take over the world? Oh yes! How dare he save us all? /rolleyes
I do wish he hadn't... we would be raiding her lich queen ass by now. ^^

Horde types never fail to disappoint with complete bias. There is a truce atm. Wich is why we aren't murdering each other on Dalaran.

there is not a truce.

[Zulkhan]

You mean the crap he pulled by stpping Sylvanas from having an infinite army and take over the world? Oh yes! How dare he save us all? /rolleyes
I do wish he hadn't... we would be raiding her lich queen ass by now. ^^

Horde types never fail to disappoint with complete bias. There is a truce atm. Wich is why we aren't murdering each other on Dalaran.

Oh well, that sounds fair actually. So Genn is free to guess work, a man absolutely unbiased and not totally desiring to claim vengeance upon Sylvanas because of personal issues (legitimate but still personal) and conclude that he can simply launch a fucking assault against the Warchief and her forces and yet somehow that's totally legit and do not damage any chance at achieving a truce between Alliance and Horde. Fascinating tale.

I'm also not sure how Dalaran serving as neutral sanctuary means anything. Yes, we can't kill each other within the city, mostly because the Kirin Tor wouldn't allow it and wouldn't allow Horde and Alliance forces in it if they started to massacre each other. That doesn't mean, however, that outside of Dalaran there's any degree of peace achieved between the factions. We didn't kill each other back in WotLK within Dalaran's borders and yet a few miles away Horde and Alliance forces butchered each other in Icecrown, Grizzly Hills and pretty much all corners of Northrend.

The undeniable fact remains one: Genn went out of his way to hunt down Sylvanas and everyone under her command (which right now means the entire Horde). Tell me how launching a military assault against the Warchief is not a pretty blatant declaration of war. Yeah, what a truce.

Unrelated note: I wonder if levelling Southshore was so horribad what the levelling of Taurajo is. Holy justice an' shiet?

[HitRefresh]

Hello everyone I was just reading through the new dataminded broadcast text dialog and stumbled across this -

So, your Alliance still endures. Longer than I expected, though she has already planted the seeds of its downfall. She is patient, that one.
When your thrones run red with betrayal... when your holy places burn and the shattered mask hangs above your hearth... only then you will know. And it will be too late.

It isn't known who is saying this yet however, from reading this little piece it got me thinking. Who could be saying this? Who could they be saying it too? Or more importantly who could it be?

My theory is that whom ever is talking here is referencing Jaina as the one planting the seeds of downfall. She was angry after Theramore was nuked, she left the Kirin Tor and Dalaran after finding out the Horde would be allowed into the city again and we haven't heard from her since. Has she been away plotting revenge? Did she return home to Kul'Tiras?

There has also been Kul'Tiras Armour sets datamind which lead me to believe that once Jaina left Dalaran she returned home and set about putting her plans for revenge into motion.

Just a couple of my thoughts i'd like to hear what everyone else thinks of this. Thanks for reading

I would assume Azshara, and what that means will probably come around in the next expansion.

[Evangeliste]

Oh well, that sounds fair actually. So Genn is free to guess work, a man absolutely unbiased and not totally desiring to claim vengeance upon Sylvanas because of personal issues (legitimate but still personal) and conclude that he can simply launch a fucking assault against the Warchief and her forces and yet somehow that's totally legit and do not damage any chance at achieving a truce between Alliance and Horde. Fascinating tale.

I'm also not sure how Dalaran serving as neutral sanctuary means anything. Yes, we can't kill each other within the city, mostly because the Kirin Tor wouldn't allow it and wouldn't allow Horde and Alliance forces in it if they started to massacre each other. That doesn't mean, however, that outside of Dalaran there's any degree of peace achieved between the factions. We didn't kill each other back in WotLK within Dalaran's borders and yet a few miles away Horde and Alliance forces butchered each other in Icecrown, Grizzly Hills and pretty much all corners of Northrend.

The undeniable fact remains one: Genn went out of his way to hunt down Sylvanas and everyone under her command (which right now means the entire Horde). Tell me how launching a military assault against the Warchief is not a pretty blatant declaration of war. Yeah, what a truce.

Unrelated note: I wonder if levelling Southshore was so horribad what the levelling of Taurajo is. Holy justice an' shiet?

I hope you don't mind me adding but, if you turn it on it's head it kinda goes both ways. There still is a truce withstanding. You're assuming that Sylvanas is going to actually make sure it is paid for in vengeance. She could overlook it if there is little gain on trying to kill Genn for what he did. She is now Warchief, if she goes straight for Genn so will the rest of the Horde as well, they rallied behind her in the cinematic to avenge Vol'jin - they could as easily do the same for any cause with the right motive.

Sylvanas going for Genn is also very stupid in itself because her priority isn't to lead like Thrall and Garrosh, right now it's to actually either save her herself and/or find a way to procreate Forsaken. That's obvious with her being in Stormheim and bargaining with Helya in the first place. It could be to bolster her ranks of Forsaken but she now has Orcs, Trolls, Tauren and more at her disposal so it's mostly likely to save herself as she only has 8 val'kyr since one saved her in the novel Edge of Night.
Simple is if she goes after Genn, being a Warchief she could actually start the war herself, then Alliance will be up her arse who is quite possibly the side that has bounced back better from their colossal losses. All the Alliance adorned Varian and rallied behind Anduin quite nicely, for the Horde Vol'jin was hit and miss, Sylvanas even more shaky though they did rally behind her, her track record isn't as peachy as say Thralls or Vol'jin's.

Still if Genn tried anything on Sylvanas it would start a war but he'd have to answer to Anduin, considering he pretty much protects Anduin, I doubt he'd go against his word or pain him even more after his charade of Stormheim, this is before they actually know anyone knew the seriousness that will unfold later in the expansion really too so if they did know, would have it happened? But perhaps that was what Genn was banking on, the fact that he can hide behind Anduin and Sylvanas being a Warchief. We don't know the depths of depravity Genn can go but he isn't a complete asshat.

She might even find another way, if she does, she's not going to waste her time on Genn, Sylvanas would rather waste time on achieving that way.

[Zulkhan]

snip

Your points are all pretty much valid. However, Sylvanas' willingness to exact retribution on Genn is not relevant by itself on the state of affairs between the factions right now. Genn's assault against Sylvanas irrevocably broke whatever tacit path of ceased hostilities between the factions. Sylvanas' plans on the matter do not change that either way. Why? Because even if Sylvanas decides that Genn is not worth further bothering with, Genn himself may have different ideas and try something else in the future. The mere existence of this eventuality is proof that no truce whatsoever is between Alliance and Horde right now.

If an actual truce is to be obtained than a new agreement of ceased hostilities must be found, something that don't seem like it's going to happen anytime soon.

[Dartz1979]

Jainas too hot looking to be a villain that and she's so sexy i know just pixels on a screen but who cares don't ruin my fantasy one day we will be able to play wow in a holodeck <.<

[Myzou]

The title really should be changed.

There's zero doubt he's referring to Sylvanas. Considering the Horde get dialogue that also says "her" and "she" when he's clearly talking about Sylvanas as well.

The "seeds of doubt" could be a lot - doubt in the Horde when she ordered a withdrawal. Doubt in the Worgen when she created a situation Genn could not refuse in Stormheim. Etc.

[Zulkhan]

Jainas too hot looking to be a villain that and she's so sexy i know just pixels on a screen but who cares don't ruin my fantasy one day we will be able to play wow in a holodeck <.<

Don't worry, not going to ruin your fantasy. I wouldn't touch it with a stick even.

[Mehrunes]

Oh well, that sounds fair actually. So Genn is free to guess work, a man absolutely unbiased and not totally desiring to claim vengeance upon Sylvanas because of personal issues (legitimate but still personal) and conclude that he can simply launch a fucking assault against the Warchief and her forces and yet somehow that's totally legit and do not damage any chance at achieving a truce between Alliance and Horde. Fascinating tale.

I'm also not sure how Dalaran serving as neutral sanctuary means anything. Yes, we can't kill each other within the city, mostly because the Kirin Tor wouldn't allow it and wouldn't allow Horde and Alliance forces in it if they started to massacre each other. That doesn't mean, however, that outside of Dalaran there's any degree of peace achieved between the factions. We didn't kill each other back in WotLK within Dalaran's borders and yet a few miles away Horde and Alliance forces butchered each other in Icecrown, Grizzly Hills and pretty much all corners of Northrend.

The undeniable fact remains one: Genn went out of his way to hunt down Sylvanas and everyone under her command (which right now means the entire Horde). Tell me how launching a military assault against the Warchief is not a pretty blatant declaration of war. Yeah, what a truce.

Unrelated note: I wonder if levelling Southshore was so horribad what the levelling of Taurajo is. Holy justice an' shiet?

You didn't fail to disappoint with your bias :3

[TriHard]

The title really should be changed.

There's zero doubt he's referring to Sylvanas. Considering the Horde get dialogue that also says "her" and "she" when he's clearly talking about Sylvanas as well.

Yes, but ppl keep saying Sylvanas is going to become an enemy, which she factually isn't.
She's never going to become one, it's just idiotic alliance mains that keep pushing their own agenda.

People read too much into everything that's said in this game which I find incredibly stupid. They forget that Blizzard specifically made the Nathrezim the masters of deception. It's all lies to make the player characters uneasy. That's it, that's all there is to it.


While this dialogue is not referring to Jaina, she's got a higher chance at becoming a villain than any of the other leaders. There's a few things that point to it.

1. She left for Kul Tiras in ANGER after the horde were let back into Dalaran.

2. We know old gods feed on the weak minded and emotions like hate, anger, etc. She's at a point mentally where she's vulnerable to N'zoth's influence.

3. The datamined clothing showed tendrils or tentacles on the robes. This can mean one of two things, it either means Kul Tiras has been affected by the increasing N'zoth activity and now they serve him. Or it could just be clothing from quests in that zone.


I think it's very likely that they're setting her up to share the same fate as Arthas so that they can finally close that chapter.
I don't think Jaina as a character holds up well without Varian and Arthas. She's always had to complement those two in particular.

We've already got Khadgar which completely overshadows Jaina in every aspect.

[Evangeliste]

Your points are all pretty much valid. However, Sylvanas' willingness to exact retribution on Genn is not relevant by itself on the state of affairs between the factions right now. Genn's assault against Sylvanas irrevocably broke whatever tacit path of ceased hostilities between the factions. Sylvanas' plans on the matter do not change that either way. Why? Because even if Sylvanas decides that Genn is not worth further bothering with, Genn himself may have different ideas and try something else in the future. The mere existence of this eventuality is proof that no truce whatsoever is between Alliance and Horde right now.

If an actual truce is to be obtained than a new agreement of ceased hostilities must be found, something that don't seem like it's going to happen anytime soon.

That is true Genn can still act upon it even if he needs to or not, he sure is banking on the power play and whether Anduin knows of what he did in Stormheim is remained to be seen, I bet Anduin doesn't really.

We can only assume this whole charade was used as a vehicle to always keep the conflict going because I doubt an actual truce will ever exist really between both factions, it will always be at best a cease fire, Blizzard won't let that happen because of the Horde and Alliance not just being a poignant thing in game that lasted decades but it's almost a cultural thing for the players outside it. Whether they do remains to be seen because in the end... We will be fighting Void lords and you can kiss the game goodbye if Horde and Alliance are killing each other when they arrive... The Void lords would just use to their advances.

[Zulkhan]

You didn't fail to disappoint with your bias :3

Yeah I did a great job but reservations remain. Did my passion for undead titties show as well? I fear Dartz stole all my glory.

That is true Genn can still act upon it even if he needs to or not, he sure is banking on the power play and whether Anduin knows of what he did in Stormheim is remained to be seen, I bet Anduin doesn't really.

The biggest chance of getting a truce is given by Anduin finally showing a spine and degree of authority by putting Genn in his place while working on some treaty with Sylvanas, an offer she would hardly decline. I have no doubt that deep within Sylvanas would love to make Genn suffer but on the other hand, knowing that Genn's leash has been tightened by his own leadership and will unlikely bother her anymore would be a worthy enough compensation.

[Evangeliste]

Yeah I did a great job but reservations remain. Did my passion for undead titties show as well? I fear Dartz stole all my glory.



The biggest chance of getting a truce is given by Anduin finally showing a spine and degree of authority by putting Genn in his place while working on some treaty with Sylvanas, an offer she would hardly decline. I have no doubt that deep within Sylvanas would love to make Genn suffer but on the other hand, knowing that Genn's leash has been tightened by his own leadership and will unlikely bother her anymore would be a worthy enough compensation.

Sorry but this whole "Anduin needs a spine" has to stop.
He before today stood up to his father and his convictions. Ran around Pandaria on his own and didn't die. He actually put Jaina in her spot hence why she fucked off no? The dude even snuck out of his own kingdom to get to Broken Shore too. He defied his own protection to claim his father's sword. He's not a baby, clearly showed that multiple times.

Honestly talk about selective.

And to be honest, when he's growing up... What 10 year boy do you know that can tactically take on villains of Warcraft size or even as anyone approaching 17? He'd suffer the same calamity that Me'dan does.

And anyway, strength isn't shown solely by being able to defeat things with brutality and arms, even they made a big point of that with Varian with his whole inner Wolf blight and recently the cinematic where is monologues with his death, sending that letter to Anduin when he knew he was going to dead stating in a paraphrase way "you've shown me not all strength is to fight but to do what's right". Heck the cinematic at the beginning with Sylvanas and Varian nodding is the example of strength - to seek help and band together when evil comes to claim more than yourself.

Sylvanas looking to truce will probably not happen, muzzling Genn is probably least of her concerns too. There's too much history of those Humans and Elves for them to effectively sign an actual treaty. It will most likely be a mutual understanding of let's just leave each other alone and even that they left that sanctity unchecked because they will trigger the Alliance versus Horde conflict when it is worthy pivot to the story telling of future expansions.

[Thage]

Horde types never fail to disappoint with complete bias. There is a truce atm. Wich is why we aren't murdering each other on Dalaran.

The Alliance and Horde aren't under a truce. They're actively fighting, which is why the lion's share of the adventurers from both factions ollie out and band together by class to get shit done, with the Kirin Tor providing logistical support and a central hub to push from.

In fact, much of Stormheim's story is all about how the Alliance and Horde utterly fail to provide any support for you because they're distracted fighting each other, leaving you to touch base with the local vrykul (with a disguised Odyn's help) to get your hands on the Aegis of Aggramar. By the time the Alliance and Horde re-enter the Stormheim story, they're still fighting each other and have gotten little accomplished toward the goal of securing the Aegis and providing you with support; you've done nearly all the legwork by that point and what remains, the Valyrjar have gotten you set up to handle.

We aren't murdering each other in Dalaran because the adventurers are working together outside the Alliance and Horde dynamic almost in entirety this expansion. Even some notable figures have abandoned the Alliance and Horde to serve in the class orders (including but not limited to Vereesa Windrunner, Lady Liadrin, Darius Crowley, Reghar Earthfury, Princess Tess Greymane, and Eitrigg). That doesn't mean the Alliance and Horde have a truce, it means the adventurers realize we have better shit to do.

[Deleted]

The Alliance and Horde aren't under a truce. They're actively fighting, which is why the lion's share of the adventurers from both factions ollie out and band together by class to get shit done, with the Kirin Tor providing logistical support and a central hub to push from.

In fact, much of Stormheim's story is all about how the Alliance and Horde utterly fail to provide any support for you because they're distracted fighting each other, leaving you to touch base with the local vrykul (with a disguised Odyn's help) to get your hands on the Aegis of Aggramar. By the time the Alliance and Horde re-enter the Stormheim story, they're still fighting each other and have gotten little accomplished toward the goal of securing the Aegis and providing you with support; you've done nearly all the legwork by that point and what remains, the Valyrjar have gotten you set up to handle.

We aren't murdering each other in Dalaran because the adventurers are working together outside the Alliance and Horde dynamic almost in entirety this expansion. Even some notable figures have abandoned the Alliance and Horde to serve in the class orders (including but not limited to Vereesa Windrunner, Lady Liadrin, Darius Crowley, Reghar Earthfury, Princess Tess Greymane, and Eitrigg). That doesn't mean the Alliance and Horde have a truce, it means the adventurers realize we have better shit to do.

I call that a truce, but sure.

[Thage]

I call that a truce, but sure.

We're not officials acting on behalf of the Alliance and Horde. The Alliance and Horde armies are still actively killing each other--hence why we had to find outside help in Stormheim, because the Forsaken fleet is scuttled and the Skybreaker is taken down, causing huge losses on both sides, and even then the Alliance and Horde continue to fight one another and leave us to our own devices. That isn't a truce, that's adventurers who operate outside the chain of command saying, "Fuck this shit," and breaking away from the Alliance and Horde. If anything it's almost outright defection.

[Zulkhan]

Sorry but this whole "Anduin needs a spine" has to stop.

Well no, not really. I'm not saying Anduin is a weakling but he needs to indeed grow a spine worthy of the position he now covers. Legion shown in quite an obvious way that he isn't there yet. There's a difference between having a strong spirit (which Anduin has) and possess the resolve to lead and be acknowledged as an authority to be respected by most and feared by those eager to deny it.

- - - Updated - - -

I call that a truce, but sure.

A truce between who? How there can be a truce between the actual factions if Genn attacks the Warchief of the Horde simply because he's in the mood of doing that?

[Evangeliste]

Well no, not really. I'm not saying Anduin is a weakling but he needs to indeed grow a spine worthy of the position he now covers. Legion shown in quite an obvious way that he isn't there yet. There's a difference between having a strong spirit (which Anduin has) and possess the resolve to lead and be acknowledged as an authority to be respected by most and feared by those eager to deny it.

- - - Updated - - -



A truce between who? How there can be a truce between the actual factions if Genn attacks the Warchief of the Horde simply because he's in the mood of doing that?

Um no. You saying he was spineless because he doesn't stand by his view and such. He did, he has always maintained a view that there could be peace between both factions, he was challenged by Jaina to attack Horde, he told her 'No.' Telling one of your strongest allies in power, sway and more is exactly how he can show a spine. He could have crumbled. He is still a youngster compared to literally most of his court, if not all.
He was literally King for probably a couple of hours, she probably overlooked Anduin with Varian being there but that isn't the case here. She listened to him enough to storm off because her challenging him didn't come out she hoped for.

He also has courage if you want that as your spine commentary, he did so when he squared off with a Dreadlord in the comics which are canon. He had courage to go see his father's grave which grimly included Varian's ashes still left on the floor with his father's sword in it.
Anduin has hardly been a coward - in fact he's faced many of things that he could have ran from but hasn't.