SPOILERS: Did Sylvanas manipulate Vol'jin's handover of power?

[Deleted]

You asked for facts and proof. I provided them.
Then you move the goalposts and blatantly ignore everything I've proven to get hung up on one word. But alright, here you go, Since you don't seem inclined to read yourself.

No, you didn't provided any citation or proof.

"Around this time, the weakened Ner'zhul began to lose control of the minds of Sylvanas and a number of banshees. She kept this discovery from Arthas and Kel'Thuzad while continuing to serve. The dreadlords contacted Sylvanas and explained that they knew the cause and arranged a secret meeting with her. They told her that Ner'zhul's— and by extension Arthas' —powers were diminishing. The nathrezim intended to use this opportunity to seize control of Lordaeron. Sylvanas tentatively agreed to assist, but under the condition that her aid would be provided on her own terms.[7]

The dreadlords planned on killing Arthas within the capital, but Sylvanas created a contingency plan in the case of his escape. She arranged for her banshees to feign allegiance and escort him to a place in the woods where she would be waiting for him.[8] After Arthas survived the dreadlords' ambush and escaped the capital, Sylvanas' loyal sisters saw him to the arranged place and then killed his bodyguards.[9]"

She was waiting for the best time to start an uprising, hardly manipulative. Vol'jin did the same.

After that, she makes further pacts with the Dreadlords. She also possesses mercenary leaders for her own ends.
She goes on a possession spree, turning factions against each other as she kills the dreadlords.

Fighting a guerrilla war is not manipulation. And Varimathras was actually the one that manipulated Sylvanas against his brothers.

"During the Battle for Andorhal Sylvanas disguised herself as Lindsay Ravensun. After the Alliance was defeated, she confronted Koltira about his truce with Thassarian, scolds him for his weakness. A portal to the Undercity was opened and Koltira was pulled through by a hooked chain, Sylvanas intending to purge him of his compassion for Thassarian and make him more of a servant of the Horde - more specifically, a servant of Sylvanas and the Forsaken."
That, is manipulative.

Yes, I brought myself that one, but remember she was killed in Hillsbrad, the disguise was for her own protection, the events weren't manipulated by her action.

And then there's the fact that she used the raised Valkyr in order to raise more undead. That, is manipulation. Some of those undead even rebelled against her as she tried to control them.

That's not manipulative, at best it's mind control, something that is heavily debated on Sylvanas' threads.

"After the Siege of Orgrimmar, Sylvanas and other Horde leaders were summoned to the Temple of the White Tiger to witness the judgement of Garrosh Hellscream. Sylvanas was initially displeased at the idea of a trial rather than an execution, and opposed the appointment of Baine Bloodhoof as Hellscream's defender. When Baine's defense of Hellscream proved better than the Banshee Queen would like, she accused him of being an "Alliance sympathizer", prompting the tauren chieftain to somewhat aggressively, albeit calmly, deny her claim while grabbing her upper arms.

So, she was honest, how is that manipulative?

Vereesa Windrunner, noticing her sister's mutual hatred for Garrosh, anonymously summoned her to Windrunner Spire to plot the assassination of the tyrannical former Warchief. Concocting a new, untraceable poison with her Forsaken subjects, she and Vereesa planned to lace Hellscream's last meal with it. In the meantime, Vereesa entertained the idea of joining her sister in leadership of the Forsaken despite the fact that it would require her to abandon her children. Sylvanas realized that the Forsaken would not accept a living creature into their leadership and decided she would murder Vereesa so that her "Little Moon" could be reborn at her side as an undead."

That's plain murder attempt, not manipulative action.

[Noomz]

The first point you made is bullshit, proven time and time again.

The third point is again bullshit, and you since you keep doing longwinded posts with no actual proof, ill assume that this is just desperate headcanon you refuse to let go of.

The fourth point is pretty much the first one, and still bullshit no matter how many times you repeat.


last but not least

"she doesn't care about the horde" is an opinion, do i need to tell you the difference between Fact and opinion?

Which point was my first point, in this case? I've been talking to more than one person and it gets difficult to follow all th responses. In what way has it been proven bullshit? You ask me to support my argument now I ask you to support yours.

Refer specifically to these points and address them with your counter argument. Don't just insult me and call it all bullshit.

No you don't. You've accurately pointed out the obvious. I didn't even know we were arguing about such blatantly obvious things. Yes, it's my opinion she doesn't care about the Horde, but she cares about the Forsaken in her own way first and foremost. She has no honor. (Plague bombing). She's incredibly unreliable and deceitful (allying with dreadlords and Helya). She has no respect for the fallen and barely any for her allies (raising more undead in Gilneas and suggesting to Lothemar she could raise dead blood elves too).

All other things I've supported with factual evidence, such as her ruthlessness, her manipulative nature and her clear tendencies for evil deeds.
What is it you feel that I've failed to support?

[Deleted]

Varimathras is kind of pointing out the obvious, that Sylvanas can't be trusted. If he means Sylvanas. Perhaps it's someone else. We will see.

Funny that you keep taking Varimathras' word as "pointing out the obvious" when he was the one that manipulated Sylvanas ever since Sylvanas' rebellion up to the Wrathgate event.

Varimathras manipulated Sylvanas to "strike down" his own brothers.
Varimathras manipulated Sylvanas by "killing" Balnazzar.
Varimathras manipulated Sylvanas in order to create Deathstalkers and the RAS.
Varimathras manipulated Sylvanas to protect herself against the Scarlet Crusade (led by Balnazzar).
And then when he was ready, he made a coup together with the RAS, leading to Wrathgate and Siege of Undercity.

[KrazyK923]

The lack of Sylvanas' morals and empathy doesn't annul Varimathras' BS over the years. Last time someone trusted him, the Scarlet Crusade and near summoning of Sargeras happened.

Had no idea that being a bad person automatically grants super powers, like playing spiritual entities bound to the world itself despite being an undead aberration to begin with. And yep, of all people in the universe double turncoat Varimathras is now the truth bearer. Color me unconvinced but I hope forgiveness will be granted nonetheless.

Can't even slip in a dumb Donald Trump joke without the triggering. Jesus you Sylvanas white knighters never have any fun.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Which point was my first point, in this case? I've been talking to more than one person and it gets difficult to follow all th responses. In what way has it been proven bullshit? You ask me to support my argument now I ask you to support yours.

She has been Genuine to some, Your argument is flawed and that you try to paint with one stroke. Read dark mirror, read Arthas to start out with.

Refer specifically to these points and address them with your counter argument. Don't just insult me and call it all bullshit.

When the point (that is just bullshit) there s nothing to do other than point it out. "she wants to turn everyone into her unwilling servants" i mean how fucking hysterically biased can you be, You actually need proof for something to be a fact. You disliking Sylvanas does not make your headcanon true.

She's never cared about anything or anyone else than herself

Once again easy disproving if you can drop the bias and actually do a little reading. You know instead of confusing your opinion with facts.

She does NOT care. The Horde is a means to an end.

again, you need proof

She has no honor. (Plague bombing).

Thanks for the laughs. This just in, No factions have honor anymore. Gotta be naked and beating your enemies with your fists.

She has no respect for the fallen and barely any for her allies (raising more undead in Gilneas and suggesting to Lothemar she could raise dead blood elves too).

Enemies are enemies, She offered Lorthemar, and dropped it when he said no.

[Deleted]

Can't even slip in a dumb Donald Trump joke without the triggering. Jesus you Sylvanas white knighters never have any fun.

Is or is not true that Varimathras is the ultimate bullshitter?

I'm still surprised to see when someone bring strong facts to the table is instantly called "white knight".

[Arrashi]

Can't even slip in a dumb Donald Trump joke without the triggering. Jesus you Sylvanas white knighters never have any fun.

Those two are hilarious coming from you.

[Deleted]

what? warcraft isnt d&d. there arent absolute alignements as good/evil, your ally paladins arent inherently good.
how a forsaken can consider good a being trained exclusively to destroy and inflict pain to his kind? he cant, for their pov an ally or scarlet paladin is a fucking boogeyman.
and for the gilnean part, once again. forsaken had martial law with urdercity full of kor'kron, with a garrosh that ordered the invasion meanwhile leading the initial charges in a suicide way with the clear objective to exterminate forsaken veterans. the plague was the only right thing that faranell and sylvanas could do to save forsaken troops. bad for gilneans sure, but the choices were beetwen undercity and gilneas.
btw, was garrosh to give a watered down plague to use.

then i didnt write that varian start a war, i write that varian scammed his farmers promising ipothetical farms (in plaguelands xDXDD) and send them to the other cape of the continent meanwhile their families die to starvation in westfall/goldshire/how are called the human zones. then, not enough happy, these "farmers" where trained and armed for a surprise attack during the truce. i mean, if sylvanas is a sinner because she cares about his people, what is varian that cheats repeatly his lowest class?

and for the onslaught. initially there was scarlet emmissaries in the light church of stormwind, maybe ally and scarlet werent best friends, but surely there was some kind of affiliation.

Are you sure the right choice was to exterminate another species? Or can't you think of another one? Fight back against the opressor rather than do his bidding?

Are you really calling varian bad because he trained troops against horde invasion? This is very ironic next to the above case you make. xD

Also, i can't think of any alliance aligned paladin that is evil. Well... maybe arthas that turned into a DK. But he stopped beeing a paladin there (hardly even became one). Most paladins die martyrs. The alliance is good dude, the rotten apples got plucked back in Warcraft 3. The alliance is constantly in defense mode and they let the horde be until they get on their face.

[Noomz]

No, you didn't provided any citation or proof.



She was waiting for the best time to start an uprising, hardly manipulative. Vol'jin did the same.



Fighting a guerrilla war is not manipulation. And Varimathras was actually the one that manipulated Sylvanas against his brothers.



Yes, I brought myself that one, but remember she was killed in Hillsbrad, the disguise was for her own protection, the events weren't manipulated by her action.



That's not manipulative, at best it's mind control, something that is heavily debated on Sylvanas' threads.



So, she was honest, how is that manipulative?



That's plain murder attempt, not manipulative action.

...are you serious? I've provided a link with all the citations and sources you need for it. I even took a photo out of my own copy of Chronciles to show you how it defines Undead.
I'm not wishing to be rude and I intend no insults, but I'm getting pretty riled up about this because it's getting ridiculous. I'm not doing this because I don't like Sylvanas. It's only a character in a game. The only character I don't like has been removed from the canon and that was He Who Shall Not Be Named, because he was incredibly poorly written.

It's all manipulative.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/manipulative
influencing or attempting to influence the behavior or emotions of others for one’s own purposes

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dict...h/manipulative
A manipulative person tries to control people to their advantage

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/de...n/manipulative
Exercising unscrupulous control or influence over a person or situation.

What you say she is doing is not incorrect, she's being ruthless, decisive and so on. But she also clearly attempts or succeeds in manipulation many times.
Other characters are also manipulative, the word doesn't need to carry a negative meaning.

[Thage]

Makes you wonder how Varimathras knew of Sylvanas being Warchief. Unless some random demon dropped that info near him, seeing how he is being tortured since Wrath.

Word gets around quick. Maybe his cell's near the water cooler.

[Evangeliste]

Sylvanas simply is someone who you can never read truly to one side or the other. Her actions, words and so forth really contradict themselves...

However, there is something to note. Val'kyr died for her, to take her place instead in the realms of the Shadowlands. You don't inspire that kind of loyalty from oppression and any other bad juju, you don't inspire a vast array of Forsaken where even now they quote "For the Dark Lady".

On the other hand, you have her distaste for Garrosh. After the Battle on Undercity you had the Kor'kron guard there and Bloodfist whom, if I recall watched Sylvanas like a hawk.

She's just simply a broadly-written character and a very three dimensional one to have major flaws and charms, perhaps a good one in the sense that people both loathe and love her, quite something that people are arguing over who and what she is to them and others impending.

[Noomz]

She has been Genuine to some, Your argument is flawed and that you try to paint with one stroke. Read dark mirror, read Arthas to start out with.




When the point (that is just bullshit) there s nothing to do other than point it out. "she wants to turn everyone into her unwilling servants" i mean how fucking hysterically biased can you be, You actually need proof for something to be a fact. You disliking Sylvanas does not make your headcanon true.



Once again easy disproving if you can drop the bias and actually do a little reading. You know instead of confusing your opinion with facts.



again, you need proof




Thanks for the laughs. This just in, No factions have honor anymore. Gotta be naked and beating your enemies with your fists.



Enemies are enemies, She offered Lorthemar, and dropped it when he said no.

Once more, I state, that I have nothing against Sylvanas. I'm arguing that she as a character does bad, evil things. That's my point with this. I'm not trying to insult you, so theres no need to get so angry about it. My frustration is coming from how some of you clearly, clearly ignore these traits about her and even seem to be implying she's not a bad person. And you seem to be taking all this as a personal insult, as if I'm trying to tarnish the reputation of a real person. I really can't grasp that reaction.

Of course, if you want to be really pedantic about opinion, then the notion of good and evil is also just opinion and entirely subjective. What you say is also opinion, so why does that have more merit than what I say? I'm hoping you'd try and refute the facts of what I've said, rather than my interpretation of those facts.
I've taken examples of Sylvanas ruthlessness, manipulation, brutality and so on and use those facts as a base for my statements and opinions about her.

[Aquamonkey]

Given that Sylvanas now leads the Horde, this part about her reshaping the Horde in her image is a bit ominous.

“Come and rule by my side. You hate the Horde—so did I, until I had a place of power there. We can be our own law, Little Moon. We can reshape the Horde in our image. Nothing could stop us. We will grind our enemies into dust and elevate our allies. I feel this; I think you can feel it too.”
--War Crimes

As already mentioned, she said she wouldn't follow a troll.

Sylvanas has never been genuine about anything.

Sylvanas was genuine about her hatred of Arthas. She was genuine about helping the BElves in TBC. She was genuine when she temporarily lost her composure at seeing her locket and sang "Lament of the Highborne". She was genuine about wanting to connect with her sister in War Crimes.

Not once has she shown anything else than her ambition to rule and turn all the living into her unwilling servants.

She committed suicide at ICC, not giving a shit about ruling anything. The Forsaken serve her willingly.

do the Forsaken follow Sylvanas out of blind loyality or are they brain-washed?
Well, each Forsaken member follow their queen for various reasons: fear, loyalty, no where else to go.... (Loreology)

While some Forsaken feared Sylvanas, others valued the security she provided. Many of the free-willed undead, however, found a purpose to their cursed existence through the banshee queen’s burning desire to destroy the Lich King. (Source)

How good it would be, she mused, to have someone she trusted. Truly trusted, who did not merely obey her orders out of fear or personal gain.
--War Crimes

She's never cared about anything or anyone else than herself, ever.

She cared about helping the BElves in TBC. She cared about her sister and her nephews in War Crimes. She cared about the valkyr.

This was her only way out. But she didn't want to give her assent out of fear. She waited until she felt something more. A fellowship. A sisterhood. Sisters.
--Edge of Night

Her Legion bio says this:

As her fate edges closer to the abyss, Sylvanas must decide how far she'll go to protect her people... and whether they're more precious to her than her soul. (Source)

[Combatbutler]

Can't even slip in a dumb Donald Trump joke without the triggering. Jesus you Sylvanas white knighters never have any fun.

Oh come on Zulkhan hates Sylvanas

[Noomz]

Funny that you keep taking Varimathras' word as "pointing out the obvious" when he was the one that manipulated Sylvanas ever since Sylvanas' rebellion up to the Wrathgate event.

Varimathras manipulated Sylvanas to "strike down" his own brothers.
Varimathras manipulated Sylvanas by "killing" Balnazzar.
Varimathras manipulated Sylvanas in order to create Deathstalkers and the RAS.
Varimathras manipulated Sylvanas to protect herself against the Scarlet Crusade (led by Balnazzar).
And then when he was ready, he made a coup together with the RAS, leading to Wrathgate and Siege of Undercity.

Once more to completely ignore everything else I write so that you can find a new tangent to hook on to. I've presented you with so much and you just handwave it and move the goalposts again. I'm not gonna entertain this much further.

[Deleted]

Once more to completely ignore everything else I write so that you can find a new tangent to hook on to. I've presented you with so much and you just handwave it and move the goalposts again. I'm not gonna entertain this much further.

Because you keep either painting straightforward actions as "manipulative" or misplacing some of Varimathras' blame on Sylvanas.

I answered to your quotes one by one, so calling it "handwaving and moving the goalposts" is a bit dishonest.

[lightofdawn]

Or maybe an Old God did it for her because the Void Lords wanted her in charge? We need an independent counsel!

- - - Updated - - -

Void Lords meddling in Horde elections!

pretty likely that the loa is corrupted by the old gods and whispered things to voljin. and blizz says his story isnt over yet, so only time will tell

[Zulkhan]

Read my big response to Tauror

Of which the only (sort of) valuable points are:

The Chronicle quote, whose usage of it is misguided however. Given past experiences with different types of undead in-game, the description wrote there doesn't seem to fit rational undead, that can be cold and ruthless, no doubt, but not necessarily driven by an all-consuming hatred towards the living. Very strong evidence of this is the Stormheim quest, right at the beginning, when you have to put down Forsaken infected by the chemical wastes coming from the wrecked ships. This is how the apothecary describes the effects of the byproduct:

"(...) Rapid cell degeneration quickly reduces the subject to a shambling husk incapable of any reason or thought beyond a violent, throbbing hatred for the warmth of life (...)"

Throbbing hatred for the warmth of life...does that reminds something? Yep, the Chronicle bit.

Needless to say, if a Forsaken gives you a quest about putting other Forsaken turned in that manner down then it's quite obvious that such is not their default status, which is further confirmed by the fact that the Chronicle itself says most undead and not all undead.

About your second point, I would kindly ask of you to rely on WoWpedia for actual sources and citations, not Wiki pages that saw their last update when dinosaurs still roamed this Earth. And I'm still waiting an actual citation relevant to the paragraph I originally quoted.

Literally everything her character did ever since Warcraft 3 backs that post up. You got a novel, a short story and tons of in-game dialogue/quests to back it up.

Random bullshit supported by vague bullshit.

You should all start to post something valuable and have the balls to argue in favor of your points by throwing them on the table. This way of yours is just too easy and convenient.

it shouldn't come as a surprise if she's been making power plays behind the scenes to garner favor with Vol'jin and put herself in a position where he'd think the loa support her rise to Warchief

This point is pretty much defeated by the undeniably genuine expression of surprise when Vol'jin chose Sylvanas for real. Hell, she was so shocked by that unexpected development that she remained stuck in her place for what seemed to be whole minutes (given the focus on all people moving in and out of the place around her with Sylvanas still firmly stuck on her spot all the time).

Plus, Vol'jin says straight and clear that he never trusted Sylvanas in every previous instance, which directly clashes with the idea of her trying to garner any favor from him in antecedent times to the promotion.

Makes you wonder how Varimathras knew of Sylvanas being Warchief. Unless some random demon dropped that info near him, seeing how he is being tortured since Wrath.

Yeah, he knows about that but pretty much nothing else. Hell, he's so full of knowledge that he basically asks us how the Horde accepted Sylvanas, proving obvious ignorance on how her whole nomination process actually played out.

Can't even slip in a dumb Donald Trump joke without the triggering. Jesus you Sylvanas white knighters never have any fun.

You're right, it was just an isolated example after all, an innocent joke. Never saw anything like that before in regards of the same exact topic. Nope.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Once more, I state, that I have nothing against Sylvanas. I'm arguing that she as a character does bad, evil things. That's my point with this. I'm not trying to insult you, so theres no need to get so angry about it. My frustration is coming from how some of you clearly, clearly ignore these traits about her and even seem to be implying she's not a bad person. And you seem to be taking all this as a personal insult, as if I'm trying to tarnish the reputation of a real person. I really can't grasp that reaction.

Of course, if you want to be really pedantic about opinion, then the notion of good and evil is also just opinion and entirely subjective. What you say is also opinion, so why does that have more merit than what I say? I'm hoping you'd try and refute the facts of what I've said, rather than my interpretation of those facts.
I've taken examples of Sylvanas ruthlessness, manipulation, brutality and so on and use those facts as a base for my statements and opinions about her.

Once again you simply are trying to gloss over the points you tried to make, which are wrong. Ignoring them won't make them right either.

[Zulkhan]

Oh come on Zulkhan hates Sylvanas

And Tauror is not particularly fond of her either. But bang, I'm a white knight now.