Low Mythic + Wait Times

[Puri]

It's really hard to find people for anything low. You can list a 13+ keystone and require 925+ and you can handpick out of half a dozen applicants within minutes.

Last week I just wanted to do a low level mythic for an alt just for the legendary upgrade items in the weekly chest, and listed my 5 mos. After 20 minutes waiting I lowered it even to 870, but not a single player applied.
So I joined a 5 cos with both a tank and healer in it, and it still took almost five minutes until the last dd applied.

But obviously that's the consequence when AP matters only marginally anymore and the drops are too low.

- - - Updated - - -

Did I mention that normal TOS drops 900 ilvl loot while for the same ilvl drops I'd have to run a m+13 and no frigging one is gonna inv an 895 dps to a +13?

The in-dungeon drop reward in no way correlates with the difficulty. M+13 drops 900 base level, you won't even get a key up to that level with a group that still can actually need that itemlevel. M+ is meant to be done overgeared.

[Bugg]

Not much reason for running m+.

[apelsinjuice]

really no reason anymore to do so low keys with the m+ changes and how pretty much ap is irrelevant for 99% of the players after getting lvl 52. You can get better gear just farming nethershards and buying 880+ ilvl gear instead of farming low m+ dungeons.

[Aggrophobic]

I don't know if the game is having issues or something but for the past 3 hours, whenever I make a mythic reg -> +5 key, the group will fill up but then we never have a 5th person try queuing up. For example, +5 Court is quick and easy dungeon but yet not a single tank queued for 40 minutes for it.

There are no realy reasons to do low level keys these days.

[Deleted]

...

Did I mention that normal TOS drops 900 ilvl loot while for the same ilvl drops I'd have to run a m+13 and no frigging one is gonna inv an 895 dps to a +13?

It's as likely you're gonna be invited to a TOS normal at 895 as it is to get invited to a +13 (unless it's cath or Kara).

All these people complaining that they're declined because of ilvl or class probably don't realize that when you open a group, you have literally dozens of dps immediately queuing for it. As the leader of that group, of course I would pick the one that looks the most promising. Nothing to do with your specific ilvl or class, just with the natural competition in a "buyer's market" for group leaders.

[kamuimac]

Life of every dps, not just the "non fotm one", I've had easier time getting into raid pugs than m+ pugs, both in NH and now in TOS managed to break into normal pug at ~895 ilvl, got few items, finally passed the 900 threshold so next week should be better, while with m+ never managed to get invited into anything above +7 unless I tried to make a group on my own key and even then it was hit and miss.

Did I mention that normal TOS drops 900 ilvl loot while for the same ilvl drops I'd have to run a m+13 and no frigging one is gonna inv an 895 dps to a +13?

which means its workign as intended - finally devs will be able to show better participation ratio for raids then in previous tiers

"all hail almighty raiding and f... everything else in game "- that seems to be devs philosphy for past 5 years why surprised now ?

[Marrilaife]

It's as likely you're gonna be invited to a TOS normal at 895 as it is to get invited to a +13 (unless it's cath or Kara).

Well, as I said... No one wanted to inv that char for anything above +7, yesterday I tried my luck with TOS normal pugs and got invited into 3 of them. First disbanded at inquisition, second at harjatan, third cleared up to KJ (called it without attempting him), but I'm pretty satisfied it went as far for such a low dps group (my char was usually within the first half of dps done, with many people sub 500k). Thing is when you go to a raid you have a chance to get loot per boss, but in m+ it's per dungeon not per boss, also you can't coin in m+, which makes raids more probable to get an item from.

M+ is meant to be done overgeared.

Which is pretty silly. Welcome to titanforged roulette. No idea why they upscaled the dungeons, they should have left it with pre-TOS scaling and just make weekly chest require 18 at max or something.

[Deleted]

Well, as I said... No one wanted to inv that char for anything above +7, yesterday I tried my luck with TOS normal pugs and got invited into 3 of them. First disbanded at inquisition, second at harjatan, third cleared up to KJ (called it without attempting him), but I'm pretty satisfied it went as far for such a low dps group (my char was usually within the first half of dps done, with many people sub 500k). Thing is when you go to a raid you have a chance to get loot per boss, but in m+ it's per dungeon not per boss, also you can't coin in m+, which makes raids more probable to get an item from.

The weekly lockout alone makes raids much much much less probable to get an item from compared to m+, even in the new system. Before it was just insanely more profitable to do m+, at least now, the reward per time commitment is more in line. Remember that a raid takes much more time to fully clear than to play an m+ dungeon. Let's say a "normal" raidgroup (that don't insanely overgear it) takes 1.5-2 hours to clear normal ToS.

In that time, you have 9 bosses with 3+ items depending on raid size. Let's say for a 20-person group it's on average 4 items per boss (it might be more with personal loot). So 36 items for 20 people over 2 hours. That's almost 2 items per person on average. In that time, you can rather easily do 3-4 m+12 dungeons. 5 People, 3 items per run, so 9-12 items total, that's almost 1.8-2.2 items per person.

The whole raid thing is currently skewed because there is a rather big incentive (leggy) for vastly overgeared players to carry the lower-geared ones, hence raids take less time.

Which is pretty silly. Welcome to titanforged roulette. No idea why they upscaled the dungeons, they should have left it with pre-TOS scaling and just make weekly chest require 18 at max or something.

Why would that have mattered? 18 in the old system is the same as a 15 now. So where is the problem? Main reason for this change is that they probably extrapolated gear inflation till the end of the expansion and found that it would have been possible to actually reach the technical limit of m+ (supposedly around 50). Therefore they had to change the curve to prevent this.

[Puri]

Why would that have mattered? 18 in the old system is the same as a 15 now. So where is the problem? Main reason for this change is that they probably extrapolated gear inflation till the end of the expansion and found that it would have been possible to actually reach the technical limit of m+ (supposedly around 50). Therefore they had to change the curve to prevent this.

Simply because for example doing a 13 (and get the dropped 900 itemlevel) would have been easier, while there would have been no difference for the maximum reachable reward.
It's also pretty certain that with 7.3 they again will change the base difficulty and getting the maxium reward at 10 as a catchup mechanism, just like for 7.2.

[Deleted]

Simply because for example doing a 13 (and get the dropped 900 itemlevel) would have been easier, while there would have been no difference for the maximum reachable reward.
It's also pretty certain that with 7.3 they again will change the base difficulty and getting the maxium reward at 10 as a catchup mechanism, just like for 7.2.

Well, if the max is at 18, then it goes down in 5-steps, so 910 for 18, 905 for 17, 900 for 16, ...885 for 13. Everything else would just be a joke. A +13 (old) in 880 ilvl is about as difficult as a +18 (old) in 910 ilvl.

If you want "easy faceroll loot" then wait till 7.3 when the will probably more the max limit back to 10.

[Marrilaife]

Why would that have mattered? 18 in the old system is the same as a 15 now. So where is the problem?

It would require less gear on average for a group to comfortably clear specific level of m+ (like a 9 or a 12) meaning it would be less skewed towards overgearing and more friendly towards less geared people who want to farm upgrades, while the most lucrative reward - the weekly chest - would still require the effort to reach the max so it wouldn't be "freebie loot" like pre 7.2.

Weekly chest serves its purpose, but farming lower keys doesn't and never did. From "boosting keys for AP" to what we have now, it doesn't serve the target audience - low geared people, returning players or alts to band together and farm some "catch up gear". For that purpose to be fulfilled, lower keys need to be easier while the top weekly chest reward needs to stay the same difficulty (as to not be a handout).

Also you didn't count the fact you can coin in raids but not in m+, and you assumed you always get the 3rd item from the m+ (but I guess we could make an assumption you clear in time same as you clear the raid and not just wipe endlessly).

And I know raids have a lockout while m+ can be spammed endlessly, but let's be honest, the amount of players who can play this game "like a second job" and have the time to run m+ for hours on end is fairly small, average player won't have time to nolife m+ because his playtime is much more limited.

[Puri]

Well, if the max is at 18, then it goes down in 5-steps, so 910 for 18, 905 for 17, 900 for 16, ...885 for 13. Everything else would just be a joke. A +13 (old) in 880 ilvl is about as difficult as a +18 (old) in 910 ilvl.

If you want "easy faceroll loot" then wait till 7.3 when the will probably more the max limit back to 10.

+9 already gave a 885 in the old system, so this obviously doesn't add up.
The point is simply that the rewarded itemlevel (in the dungeon chest) in no way correlates to the itemlevel needed for even getting a key to that level. You won't get a m+13 keystone if your group is sporting a 895 non-tier itemlevel.

[Marrilaife]

Simply because for example doing a 13 (and get the dropped 900 itemlevel) would have been easier, while there would have been no difference for the maximum reachable reward.

Yes, that's what I meant, don't change the drops (while making dungeon scaling slightly less steep) but change the weekly chest, is there really a necessity weekly needs to be +20 ilvl over drops? Could be a tad bit closer. Loot drops go up to 910 base, once you're fully geared from hc TOS not mentioning mythic you won't need gear drops (unless you wanna play titanforge roulette) so it should be mostly a catch up / gear up content, while the weekly can offer something lucrative even for people who no longer need the base drops.

A system where you need to put extra effort to get the best reward (weekly) but is more forgiving for people who just wanna gear up. As I said, lower keys often reward loot below lfr quality while requiring more player engagement than lfr (where you can semi-afk and no one will notice, also the gear threshold to entry lfr is often very lenient).

[netherflame]

For an example: +15 run drops 910ilvl gear but to do a smooth run without depleting the key you need a group with higher than 910ilvl gear. I still havent seen a single upgrade from doing 15 runs. Also doing a few world quests award more AP than doing a M+ run which is silly.

This statement is so unbelievably false, is not even funny. Chesting a 15 isn't nearly as hard as people make it out to be as long as you don't rush and be careless.

[Softbottom]

The weekly lockout alone makes raids much much much less probable to get an item from compared to m+, even in the new system. Before it was just insanely more profitable to do m+, at least now, the reward per time commitment is more in line. Remember that a raid takes much more time to fully clear than to play an m+ dungeon. Let's say a "normal" raidgroup (that don't insanely overgear it) takes 1.5-2 hours to clear normal ToS.

In that time, you have 9 bosses with 3+ items depending on raid size. Let's say for a 20-person group it's on average 4 items per boss (it might be more with personal loot). So 36 items for 20 people over 2 hours. That's almost 2 items per person on average. In that time, you can rather easily do 3-4 m+12 dungeons. 5 People, 3 items per run, so 9-12 items total, that's almost 1.8-2.2 items per person.

The whole raid thing is currently skewed because there is a rather big incentive (leggy) for vastly overgeared players to carry the lower-geared ones, hence raids take less time.



Why would that have mattered? 18 in the old system is the same as a 15 now. So where is the problem? Main reason for this change is that they probably extrapolated gear inflation till the end of the expansion and found that it would have been possible to actually reach the technical limit of m+ (supposedly around 50). Therefore they had to change the curve to prevent this.

It makes raids less profitable but the big issue with m+ is how often you actually get an upgrade from it. Most items from dungeons at this point in the xpac are garbage. Each class has with 4pc TOS+ lege's and other raid items. You have what? 2-4 slots max to upgrade if you run m+. I run them only in hopes of getting 940+ TF relics lol.

[Swalload]

I don't know if the game is having issues or something but for the past 3 hours, whenever I make a mythic reg -> +5 key, the group will fill up but then we never have a 5th person try queuing up. For example, +5 Court is quick and easy dungeon but yet not a single tank queued for 40 minutes for it.

What ilvl requirement did you put? you probably wont see a tank over 900 apply for that. I know I don't join any group under +10 (unless I'm helping friends or guildies pushing their keys) so if you put like 910 for a +5 you can forget about it lol.

[Osmeric]

The best reason to do low level M+ was to get 20 writhing essences/week, but most people should have upgraded their best legendaries by now.