Frost 7.3

[Piz813]

Dunno if this has been noted yet:
Icy Talons Frost Strike also increases your melee attack speed by 12% (down from 15%) for 6 sec, stacking up to 3 times. Frost Death Knight - Level 56 Talent.

With all the changes, re-arranging of talents etc, I'm really not sure now what we're supposed to be doing come the patch.

REALLY? F**k!
I been saying they needed to extend the time for IT but NOT lower the attack speed!!!

Then again a guy in Discord, Hellbread, was messing around with BoS on twitch and Crystalline Swords was No.2 on damage dealt due to Thronebreaker. So maybe thats why the nerf?
either way. Ugh.

[Bisque]

I am just hoping Icy Talons stays above 10%.... That being said I wouldn't mind the 12% if they upped the duration to 8 seconds.

[hellhamster]

I am just hoping Icy Talons stays above 10%.... That being said I wouldn't mind the 12% if they upped the duration to 8 seconds.

That would be too fucking amazing to ever happen.

[Schizoide]

Was a long analogy but im at work and it reminds me of 3 different times i had worked for a marketing manager who was the new hire, they would never choose the straight forward solution as that would (i guess) diminish the usefulness of there job ("i mean anyone could have come up with this why are we paying you!?"), instead they would have these elaborate untested machinations and devote endless amounts of company resources always going over budget to get there idea to work.

I don't think the devs are being malicious or deceptive in any way. They truly believe that DKs should have slow movement, as part of their vision for the class, how it feels to play. This is of course in stark contrast to the way DKs have actually played since 2008; we've always moved pretty quickly.

It also conflicts with the lore, not only WoW but all the way back to Warcraft 3 in 2002, where Unholy Aura granted substantial movement speed-- which DKs had in early WOTLK and was actually given to Windwalker Monks this expansion. So this was a huge change that turned a lot of players off. Again, it's why I switched mains myself.

Historically they absolutely will not change these deeply-held design principles within an expansion. But between expansions all bets are off. So it's critical that when beta forums open DKs express our extreme displeasure at this treatment.

[Icedcoffeee]

I don't think the devs are being malicious or deceptive in any way. They truly believe that DKs should have slow movement, as part of their vision for the class, how it feels to play. This is of course in stark contrast to the way DKs have actually played since 2008; we've always moved pretty quickly.

It also conflicts with the lore, not only WoW but all the way back to Warcraft 3 in 2002, where Unholy Aura granted substantial movement speed-- which DKs had in early WOTLK and was actually given to Windwalker Monks this expansion. So this was a huge change that turned a lot of players off. Again, it's why I switched mains myself.

Historically they absolutely will not change these deeply-held design principles within an expansion. But between expansions all bets are off. So it's critical that when beta forums open DKs express our extreme displeasure at this treatment.

I think the problem is our class fantasy is much more heavily influenced by WoW LK Arthas than WC3 Arthas. Especially with Frost. And since there will always be a slowest class/spec, I have a hard time seeing it shifting away from us and ret paladins. The best we can hope for is to pressure them to up to minimum movement speed that they think is acceptable. Although I'm not totally opposed to some of their alternate solutions. (More FS range, the new Inexorable Assault, etc.)

[Nemesquish]

I don't think the devs are being malicious or deceptive in any way. They truly believe that DKs should have slow movement, as part of their vision for the class, how it feels to play. This is of course in stark contrast to the way DKs have actually played since 2008; we've always moved pretty quickly.

It also conflicts with the lore, not only WoW but all the way back to Warcraft 3 in 2002, where Unholy Aura granted substantial movement speed-- which DKs had in early WOTLK and was actually given to Windwalker Monks this expansion. So this was a huge change that turned a lot of players off. Again, it's why I switched mains myself.

Historically they absolutely will not change these deeply-held design principles within an expansion. But between expansions all bets are off. So it's critical that when beta forums open DKs express our extreme displeasure at this treatment.

While thats fine and dandy they want to keep that flavor, its just not something possible to fit inside a balance nightmare game like WoW.

If a class is going to be as slow as us, than we 100% should do #1 damage IF we have the most uptime on boss, no way around it, and historically we're probably the worst spec thats been in the game since launch (or atleast bottom 3).

I really don't have a huge issue with the slow thing, aslong as we actually do great (talking atleast top 3) damage if we can maintain large uptime on the boss, but as of now, we're just the slowest class in the game and until the 5% buff we were the worst damage in the game aswell, with an ability that requires the most uptime of any skill in the game to make effective. It's just plain bad/lazy design and they use the "slow juggernaut" bullshit as a straight cop out

[Schizoide]

Well, BM hunters are worse.

You care about performance, and that's fine. That's easily fixed with a numbers buff. But that isn't what I, personally, care about. I simply don't find the slow movement to be fun.

[RuneDK]

Well I wouldn't say we necessarily need to be the top damage due to being slow. There's supposed to be a strength and weakness to everything...our main weakness is our mobility....ways to counter that is either high damage or high survival. Right now we're neither. We'll see what happens with 7.3 but ultimately our mobility will never change this expansion....so we need to be loud during ptr about our damage or survivability. Those are the only two things to counter being this slow.

[Nemesquish]

Well, BM hunters are worse.

You care about performance, and that's fine. That's easily fixed with a numbers buff. But that isn't what I, personally, care about. I simply don't find the slow movement to be fun.

Maybe currently, but BM has had some tiers (and PvP seasons) where they were absolute monsters and literally a 2 button class. Frost has maybe had 1 tier where it was a top 2 Spec (NH before helm nerf)

[Piz813]

Well I wouldn't say we necessarily need to be the top damage due to being slow. There's supposed to be a strength and weakness to everything...our main weakness is our mobility....ways to counter that is either high damage or high survival. Right now we're neither. We'll see what happens with 7.3 but ultimately our mobility will never change this expansion....so we need to be loud during ptr about our damage or survivability. Those are the only two things to counter being this slow.

hmm? we have Wraith Walk. get you out of something in a pinch. if a worgen, dark flight racial.

Frost can pop IBF and one Death Strike and heal to almost full. UH can spec Corpse Shield or spam DS a bit to get some health back. We can survive a lot of majick damage attacks with AMS. I think we have a pretty good foundation for surviving mechanics even standing in fire.

[Khain]

hmm? we have Wraith Walk. get you out of something in a pinch. if a worgen, dark flight racial.

Frost can pop IBF and one Death Strike and heal to almost full. UH can spec Corpse Shield or spam DS a bit to get some health back. We can survive a lot of majick damage attacks with AMS. I think we have a pretty good foundation for surviving mechanics even standing in fire.

DK survival should be way higher considering the mobility. Unholy has the better end since that weapon trait that reduces aoe damage is 100x better than the frost's version that only gives 13% armor. I always make a comparison with rogues, because i don't think is fair for class with spectacular mobility have the best survival tools in the game.

[RuneDK]

hmm? we have Wraith Walk. get you out of something in a pinch. if a worgen, dark flight racial.

Frost can pop IBF and one Death Strike and heal to almost full. UH can spec Corpse Shield or spam DS a bit to get some health back. We can survive a lot of majick damage attacks with AMS. I think we have a pretty good foundation for surviving mechanics even standing in fire.

When it comes to pve sure I won't argue....but there is a pvp aspect to the ame too.

[Hoeth]

hmm? we have Wraith Walk. get you out of something in a pinch. if a worgen, dark flight racial.

Frost can pop IBF and one Death Strike and heal to almost full. UH can spec Corpse Shield or spam DS a bit to get some health back. We can survive a lot of majick damage attacks with AMS. I think we have a pretty good foundation for surviving mechanics even standing in fire.

Raid survivability is a lot different from open world survivability. Self-healing is nearly worthless in a raid; the things that matter are damage reduction and more importantly immunities. Players rarely die from a prolonged lack of healing anymore (at least in competent raid groups), but the ability to trivialize mechanics with immunities and/or survive big hits of damage is very valuable.

I can't imagine Blizzard continuing down this road of nearly requisite immunities much longer though. There are so many raid mechanics that require these abilities that it makes it difficult to justify specs that don't have them, especially when the ones that do are also typically the best damage dealers.

[meumaxu]

ofc NOT, frost is still garbage, we gonna need AT LEAST 30% buff to be competitive with UH

[Hoeth]

ofc NOT, frost is still garbage, we gonna need AT LEAST 30% buff to be competitive with UH

Hyperbole and exaggerations like this are not helpful.

A 30% buff would make frost the strongest spec in the game by a considerable margin.

[meumaxu]

Hyperbole and exaggerations like this are not helpful.

A 30% buff would make frost the strongest spec in the game by a considerable margin.

yeah... a 20% would make us top 3 spec atm

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13

[Derecho]

The analogies given to Blizzard class design in this thread are absolutely on POINT.

I don't know any game developers in real life, so I have no idea how they think about things. All I have to go off is what I see from what we get in WoW. They're so worried about getting to the root cause of the issue that they miss the easy fixes in search of a long-term, permanent fix. A lot of times, the long-term solution isn't so long term nor is it the best solution.

Their root cause approach would be fine if they were able to attach bandaids that fixed things (I mean really fixed things) at the same time they searched for a long term solution to the problems they create themselves.

A lot of times, I feel they identify the root problem wrong, which lead us to the funny analogies noted above on their problem solving. They solve for problems that weren't there to start, or they solve for problems in a way that doesn't actually fix what was wrong. It's like a root cause analysis that has gone horribly wrong time and time again. Certain problems probably do warrant the approach they take, but I'd say that most of the problems with balance in WoW do NOT need the approach they are taking. However, I'm betting developers at WoW must think similarly, or the ones who don't aren't willing to speak up. They've been doing these bone-headed fixes for at least 2 expansions at this point. Fixes that leave you literally shaking your head in disgust or scratching your head and wondering what the heck just happened.

They don't appear to be doing the two (bandaid fixing with logical steps AND hatching long-term solutions to the problem via better class design) simultaneously. Their bandaids suck and their long-term fix success rate isn't very good. Look at how the classes have changed every expac.

[RuneDK]

The analogies given to Blizzard class design in this thread are absolutely on POINT.

I don't know any game developers in real life, so I have no idea how they think about things. All I have to go off is what I see from what we get in WoW. They're so worried about getting to the root cause of the issue that they miss the easy fixes in search of a long-term, permanent fix. A lot of times, the long-term solution isn't so long term nor is it the best solution.

Their root cause approach would be fine if they were able to attach bandaids that fixed things (I mean really fixed things) at the same time they searched for a long term solution to the problems they create themselves.

A lot of times, I feel they identify the root problem wrong, which lead us to the funny analogies noted above on their problem solving. They solve for problems that weren't there to start, or they solve for problems in a way that doesn't actually fix what was wrong. It's like a root cause analysis that has gone horribly wrong time and time again. Certain problems probably do warrant the approach they take, but I'd say that most of the problems with balance in WoW do NOT need the approach they are taking. However, I'm betting developers at WoW must think similarly, or the ones who don't aren't willing to speak up. They've been doing these bone-headed fixes for at least 2 expansions at this point. Fixes that leave you literally shaking your head in disgust or scratching your head and wondering what the heck just happened.

They don't appear to be doing the two (bandaid fixing with logical steps AND hatching long-term solutions to the problem via better class design) simultaneously. Their bandaids suck and their long-term fix success rate isn't very good. Look at how the classes have changed every expac.

Classes changing every expansion is to make things still feel fresh while trying to stick to the roots of what made the class fun. I'm personally okay with that, imagine if you played any of the mage specs today the same way they played in Vanilla....it would be exceptionally boring. The main problem is they either a) don't realize the problems they create or b) don't care and just stick to what they want. If this was back in TBC/WotLK era where the game was growing strong, it would be more acceptable even if we didn't like it. However, the game is losing subs more than it's gaining new ones. It's been out for 13 years, etc. If they want this game around around 5-10 years, they need to start thinking long term and be more willing to admit mistakes and short term remedies to fix them. Which leads me to them needing someone who actually plays the classes/specs they're doing. With the current state of DK mobility, I cannot sit here and say with certainty that someone on the development team is playing a DK....because this weakness has no strength....we're not the top damage dealer and we don't have the sturdiness either. I remember them stating they wanted everyone to have a weakness(lol except rogues ofc, /s)....and I am PERFECTLY fine with our mobility being a weakness(even though it's not really what we've been about since our inception but w/e, but I remember clearly stating during beta that there is ZERO strength to our weakness to balance it out. We aren't the top dps if we have 100% uptime and we don't have the sturdiness some of the cloth classes have. So what exactly is our strength? Getting back to the point of devs not playing a dk....with the current state of mobility...if any of them actually played a DK I can't imagine them being okay with how slow we are...and if there are some playing DK's then they aren't speaking up...I personally do not know one person who is like yea dk mobility is fine.

[Derecho]

*snip*

I don't disagree with you at all. Everything you are saying rings true to me.

I am not trying to make the argument that classes should stay the same, I simply mean that, before, they were able to build on the classes in new and exciting ways that enhanced the core gameplay. I don't feel the Legion's DK version fits that description.

I also agree that it's rather dishonest of them to sell our newly acquired speed challenges by saying that we are slow but hit hard, when we are definitely slow but don't hit hard. When we hit hard, we get nerfed. There is no upside to our slowness, no payoff for moving slower than everyone else. Even the new talents don't make up for that, as they apply to one spec only. Not only is our slowness not functional or fair, it ruins the "flavor" they were going for. It's dreadful, and admitting they were wrong about it isn't something they'll do. The guy who made that decision must still be working at Blizzard.

Blizzard only allows parity among certain classes, and we all know which classes those are. They're the ones who've been at the top of the totem poll in both PvP and PvE, with almost uninterrupted success since Vanilla. They're also classes that enjoy high mobility and damage in combat.

[Schizoide]

The best technical argument against that design is that it's quite literally impossible to balance a melee spec that deals more sustained damage than other specs only when in melee range because time on target and travel distances widely vary by encounter. Can't be balanced with a meaningful difference in movement capability. Your spec either ends up vastly overpowered in encounters without movement or just plain terrible everywhere. At most, the new talent compensates a bit for the lower-end of that.

All that said, again, for me it isn't about DPS. I hate how it feels walking at 100% movespeed. It feels like like my DK is snared all the time.