Realistic wooden paintings depict the ancient faces of Egypt from 2000 years ago

[Freighter]

Oh, really?

Yes, really.

[Kalis]

You're aware that there's about a two millennia gap between the Faiyum portraits and Alexis Tsipras, right?

And? Widespread population movements are incredibly rare - places like North America and Australasia are the exceptions - the peoples who live in modern Greece are largely the descendants of those who loved in ancient Greece, the cultures have changed dramatically, but the people not so much.

The Egyptians have quite a disctinct genetic marker that has been found to go back to aancient times, yet as a people that were conquered a number of times, using your 19th century-era theory, theat should not be the case.

[Chrysia]

And? Widespread population movements are incredibly rare - places like North America and Australasia are the exceptions - the peoples who live in modern Greece are largely the descendants of those who loved in ancient Greece, the cultures have changed dramatically, but the people not so much.

The Egyptians have quite a disctinct genetic marker that has been found to go back to aancient times, yet as a people that were conquered a number of times, using your 19th century-era theory, theat should not be the case.

And those portraits don't look a goddamn thing like Modern Egyptians, either, because it's of the pharaohs and other important nobles, most of whom had Greek ancestry in addition to Egyptian or Persian ancestry.

[Kalis]

Yes, now, and Southeastern Mediterraneans look like that specifically because of Ancient Greek genetic influence.

That is simply not true, Greek genetic influence on that region is not particularly significant. Even the Greek-Cypriots are not particularly Greek as far as ethnicity goes, they have more in common with Syrians.

You are another espousing outdated mass migration theories from the 19th century, but DNA evidence blew them out of the water. The Egyptians have basically not moved for thousands of years, their culture has changed but the people have been relatively static.

[Elegiac]

And? Widespread population movements are incredibly rare - places like North America and Australasia are the exceptions - the peoples who live in modern Greece are largely the descendants of those who loved in ancient Greece, the cultures have changed dramatically, but the people not so much.

The Egyptians have quite a disctinct genetic marker that has been found to go back to aancient times, yet as a people that were conquered a number of times, using your 19th century-era theory, theat should not be the case.

And? Them being descended from the Hellenic population in the early part of the common era does not mean that the phenotype hasn't shifted or diversified. There are Greeks who look very Caucasian, there are Greeks who look very Levantine.

To say nothing of 'they don't look Greek' is pretty useless when these are doubtless idealised representations through a Hellenistic artist's lens.

[Dezerte]

I see they invented anime.

[Kalis]

And those portraits don't look a goddamn thing like Modern Egyptians, either, because it's of the pharaohs and other important nobles, most of whom had Greek ancestry in addition to Egyptian or Persian ancestry.

What? Have you ever been to Egypt? Many of the ruling classes were natives that adopted a more Hellenic culture, this was typical and literally was Alexander had taught his generals to do, so it was no surprise that the successor states did exactly that.

You should get an update of your history books, try something written after 1850.

[Chrysia]

That is simply not true, Greek genetic influence on that region is not particularly significant. Even the Greek-Cypriots are not particularly Greek as far as ethnicity goes, they have more in common with Syrians.

You are another espousing outdated mass migration theories from the 19th century, but DNA evidence blew them out of the water. The Egyptians have basically not moved for thousands of years, their culture has changed but the people have been relatively static.

Again, this depends entirely on what segment of the population you're talking about. The masses didn't mass migrate, but nobles interbred significantly, especially during the Greek conquests under Alexander. Alexander specifically encouraged it, and even ordered it on occasion.

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What? Have you ever been to Egypt? Many of the ruling classes were natives that adopted a more Hellenic culture, this was typical and literally was Alexander had taught his generals to do, so it was no surprise that the successor states did exactly that.

You should get an update of your history books, try something written after 1850.

Ptolemy I Soter was not a native Egyptian.

[Elegiac]

I see they invented anime.

> Dude painting death mask portraits in Hellenistic Egypt
> Another guy comes along: "Is that anime?"

[Shadowferal]

Maybe the article is written poorly. On one hand it says date the wooden panels in the first century BC, then it claims "Coptic" which invariably refers to "Christianity" which didn't even exists then.

[Dezerte]

> Dude painting death mask portraits in Hellenistic Egypt
> Another guy comes along: "Is that anime?"

>Painter exclaims: "Oh go back to your basement you weeaboo!"

[Elegiac]

Maybe the article is written poorly. On one hand it says date the wooden panels in the first century BC, then it claims "Coptic" which invariably refers to "Christianity" which didn't even exists then.

It is; this probably has something to do with the fact that there's something of a gap in the popular mind between Egyptology, which usually ends after the Roman Conquest, and Roman History which tends to cover Egypt pretty incidentally.

[Chrysia]

Maybe the article is written poorly. On one hand it says date the wooden panels in the first century BC, then it claims "Coptic" which invariably refers to "Christianity" which didn't even exists then.

I think they dropped a word. It should be "from before the Coptic period."

[LMuhlen]

They have some incredibly feminine face somehow.

Fascinating!

Wait... are those men?

[Elegiac]

I think they dropped a word. It should be "from before the Coptic period."

Either that or they're attempting to use 'Coptic' as describing Hellenized Egypt, which is...problematic.

Personally I side with the view that everything from Ptolemy up until the Muslim conquest can be classified as Hellenistic.

[Kalis]

And? Them being descended from the Hellenic population in the early part of the common era does not mean that the phenotype hasn't shifted or diversified. There are Greeks who look very Caucasian, there are Greeks who look very Levantine.

To say nothing of 'they don't look Greek' is pretty useless when these are doubtless idealised representations through a Hellenistic artist's lens.

Yeah, that DNA evidence is shit, we should just accept that Didactic knows different.

Those people look like South Eastern Mediterraneas do nowadays, they do not look particularly Greek, as their portraits are from the South Eastern Mediterranean region, then there is a good chance they were native to there. Or according to you, there might have been some massive population shifts, which has left no DNA evidence behind. Hmm...yeah, I am going to go with those pesky experts again and not your Ancient Aliens-worthy argument.

[Rooflesstoofless]

Some were, especially during the New Kingdom and Third Intermediate Periods. But most Ancient Egyptians appear to have been ethnically most similar to other Semitic people of the Near East; granted, that the sample size we have is actually fairly small.

I always thought they would have looked somewhat middle-Eastern and Semitic with some black rulers mixed in. The artwork and claims in our classrooms made it look like the Egyptian dynasties were all Ving Rhames or Michael Clarke Duncan looking superhero black dudes with bulging biceps.

I think the "logic" goes something like African-Americans are black, Egypt is in Africa, therefore Egyptians must be black. It is things like that which helped perpetuate the stereotype that Yanks are a bit unworldly.

I grew up going to inner city public schools which is exactly where most of the super progressive teachers ended up teaching. The same college that created Kwanza and tried to initially pass it off as an ancient tradition helped perpetuate a politicized version of world history where everyone was extremely racially segregated. The way I was taught was that all whites were North of the mediterranian, blacks were south of it, and there was a giant desert with crazy brown people in it.

[Kalis]

Again, this depends entirely on what segment of the population you're talking about. The masses didn't mass migrate, but nobles interbred significantly, especially during the Greek conquests under Alexander. Alexander specifically encouraged it, and even ordered it on occasion.

That is great, but they still do not look like typical Greeks and they still look like typical Egyptians, so your argument still requires them to be Greeks living in Egypt that look Egyptian and not Greek. There is a far simpler reason.

Ptolemy I Soter was not a native Egyptian.

Alexander the Great was not Scottish and Napoleon was not from Australia. Any other things people are not, you wish to enlighten the world about?

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...and there was a giant desert with crazy brown people in it.

Well, to be fair...

[Chrysia]

That is great, but they still do not look like typical Greeks and they still look like typical Egyptians, so your argument still requires them to be Greeks living in Egypt that look Egyptian and not Greek. There is a far simpler reason.

Alexander the Great was not Scottish and Napoleon was not from Australia. Any other things people are not, you wish to enlighten the world about?

I do not see how those portraits look like Egyptians. They look almost identical to the Greek portrait I linked earlier.

The point is that Ptolemy was the ancestor of the entire Ptolemaic dynasty, and his lieutenants also married into the Egyptian nobility. Those lines largely inbred, preserving a Helleno-Egyptian ruling class that was genetically distinct from their subjects.

[Shadowferal]

meh...Egypt's been a melting pot for millennia, could look like anyone.