Confusion continues surrounding drunken consent

[Freighter]

I asked you to prove your statement, but it is just a baseless claim.

No, you insinuated that it's about regret when women report rape when drunk, I denied that it is. You go prove what you said.

And too drunk is unconscious, nothing less.

Nope.

[Antiganon]

2. What is wrong with victim blaming? No one has ever been able to give me a coherent answer to that, if im waving thousands in cash around in a bad neighborhood then i am at least partially to blame for being robbed. No, i did not force them to rob me, but that doesn't mean that my stupidity wasn't a deciding factor in me being robbed.

Blaming the victim causes other victims to not come forward, and is generally a dick move. If you are waving thousands in cash around in a bad neighborhood that's a bad idea. As is getting completely loaded at a bar with strangers who want to have sex with you. Neither of those scenarios absolves the person who robbed or raped you of guilt.

5. Drunk driving, yea that can be called abhorrent, but not drunk sex. Normally no one gets hurt by drunken sex, but yea, if you are stupid enough to get too drunk then that is on you your self.

There are people in this thread claiming "herp derp, if I'm drunk I can't consent, that means if I'm drunk you can't arrest me for DUI because lulz responsibility." The comparison (and drunk driving in general) is abhorrent. Drunk sex is fine, provided there are two consenting adults (that's ACTUAL consent, not imagined or implied consent).

6. You should not have to check if someone is too drunk or not, that is their own business. Revoking consent the next day isn't rape, it just makes the other person an asshole. People can always claim rape, no matter how drunk or not they are.

If you are trying to have sex with someone, it is 100% your business to check if they are mentally fit to do so. Generally speaking, if a person is so drunk they can't remember giving consent, they were probably too drunk to legally give consent. Do you have any sources that indicate there is any significant number of people claiming rape after the fact due to regret, or is this just the standard talking point?

[Freighter]

Oh, and you have still not proven that you can't consent while drunk.

Too drunk. It's basically the law in most countries.

[Krastyn]

There are a lot of things in the story that aren't mentioned that could make things go either way, like their friendship history, location of the incident, what happened after she "woke up" during sex, etc.

1. Walking to the car
Rapey - he was trying to get her alone
Non-rapey - he wanted an excuse to get away from the party, wanted to help, wanted to get her alone to become more than friends, there are lots of non-rape reasons for this.

2. Kissing - Nothing in the story said this was forced.
Rapey - Self-explanatory
Non-Rapey - Friends becoming more than friends, friends with benefits

3. Sex - Same as 2.

4. Next day text
Rapey - Guilt / coverup for the act
Non-Rapey - They just crossed a line in their friendship. And with alcohol being involved sometimes people make choices they wouldn't otherwise. Alcohol lowers inhibitions, and you may decide to do some things that you wouldn't sober, be it sexual or otherwise. He was ok with what happened, wanted to make sure see was the next day.

It also amazes me the number of people in this thread who don't seem to understand or can't accept aspects of being blackout drunk. I have been a couple times in my life. I'll use my 18th birthday as an example in which I consumed way too many drinks (18) in too short of a time (4 hours). I remember getting to the bar, starting drinking, the table we were at, and who was there. Then a blank. Then I remember dancing. Not getting from the table to the dance floor, or going from the dance floor back to the table. Just a snippet of dancing (which from talking with friends after, happened about an hour before we left). From there, I remember telling my brother to pull the car over to throw up. Don't remember how I got from the bar to the car, or the first half of the car ride. The next thing I remember from that point is waking up in my bed the next day. I don't remember the rest of the car ride home, I don't remember how I got inside, I don't remember getting up in the middle of the night, walking down the hallway, around the corner, going into the bathroom, throwing up on the bathroom floor, and returning to bed (confirmation from my parents the next day this occurred after I had come home and gone to bed initially). My friends filled me in on the bar parts that I don't remember, which included conversations I don't remember having. To me, that's blackout drunk. Events occurred, I was involved, I don't remember them.

[Deleted]

Blaming the victim causes other victims to not come forward, and is generally a dick move. If you are waving thousands in cash around in a bad neighborhood that's a bad idea. As is getting completely loaded at a bar with strangers who want to have sex with you. Neither of those scenarios absolves the person who robbed or raped you of guilt.

I do not think anyone ever claimed that it does absolve a robber or a rapist, but that doesn't mean that you as a victim aren't at fault too.
Maybe if we start pointing out this obvious fact then people become more careful and this would happen less.

There are people in this thread claiming "herp derp, if I'm drunk I can't consent, that means if I'm drunk you can't arrest me for DUI because lulz responsibility." The comparison (and drunk driving in general) is abhorrent. Drunk sex is fine, provided there are two consenting adults (that's ACTUAL consent, not imagined or implied consent).

So that means that drunken sex isn't abhorrent The comparison isn't abhorrent, it is just pointing out something else that actually is abhorrent, the fact that some people believe that just because they got drunk that they are not responsible for their own actions.

If you are trying to have sex with someone, it is 100% your business to check if they are mentally fit to do so. Generally speaking, if a person is so drunk they can't remember giving consent, they were probably too drunk to legally give consent. Do you have any sources that indicate there is any significant number of people claiming rape after the fact due to regret, or is this just the standard talking point?

I didn't know that something abhorrent needed have a significant number of people doing it before it gets abhorrent.. Sorry but that is just plainly stupid. If you are that drunk then you should not be trying to have sex, that is on you and you alone. If some other drunk person then has sex with you (that your drunken head consented to) you should not be able to blame it on them.

- - - Updated - - -

Too drunk. It's basically the law in most countries.

Again, the only too drunk there is is being unconscious.

[Freighter]

Again, the only too drunk there is is being unconscious.

Nope, that's simply not the case.

[Deleted]

Nope, that's simply not the case.

Proof it, and then while you are at it, proof how people are supposed to know how drunk these strangers actually are.

[Freighter]

Proof it, and then while you are at it, proof how people are supposed to know how drunk these strangers actually are.

You made the claim that it is only at unconsciousness that one is unable to consent. Prove it.

[Deleted]

A good rule of thumb is, when people say something is okay (consent to something) then that something is okay to do.

- - - Updated - - -

You made the claim that it is only at unconsciousness. Prove it.

Not before you made a claim that it is too drunk, but hell, if you consent to something then that something is okay to do. If you are unable to consent then you should not be able to drink.

[Freighter]

Not before you made a claim that it is too drunk, but hell, if you consent to something then that something is okay to do. If you are unable to consent then you should not be able to drink.

No, it doesn't.

http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/aol/downl...a-5a44aa8ca1a9

90. A consent is not such a consent as is intended by any section of
this Code —

(a) if the consent is given by a person —
(i) under fear of injury or wrongful restraint to the person
or to some other person; or
(ii) under a misconception of fact,
and the person doing the act knows, or has reason to believe,
that the consent was given in consequence of such fear or
misconception;
(b) if the consent is given by a person who, from unsoundness of
mind, mental incapacity, intoxication, or the influence of any
drug or other substance, is unable to understand the nature
and consequence of that to which he gives his consent; or
(c) unless the contrary appears from the context, if the consent is
given by a person who is under 12 years of age.

That's when you're too drunk. That's not unconsciousness.

[Deleted]

No, it doesn't.

http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/aol/downl...a-5a44aa8ca1a9

90. A consent is not such a consent as is intended by any section of
this Code —

(a) if the consent is given by a person —
(i) under fear of injury or wrongful restraint to the person
or to some other person; or
(ii) under a misconception of fact,
and the person doing the act knows, or has reason to believe,
that the consent was given in consequence of such fear or
misconception;
(b) if the consent is given by a person who, from unsoundness of
mind, mental incapacity, intoxication, or the influence of any
drug or other substance, is unable to understand the nature
and consequence of that to which he gives his consent; or
(c) unless the contrary appears from the context, if the consent is
given by a person who is under 12 years of age.

That's when you're too drunk. That's not unconsciousness.

No, that doesn't state when you are too drunk, it states that if you are too drunk that you can not consent. It doesn't tell you how intoxicated that is.
The problem is that you cant know how drunk someone is unless they are knocked out, especially when the other party is drunk too.

[hakujinbakasama]

Here is the stupidity in the law. If you get drunk and drive, you get charged with a DUI.

If you get drunk and fuck someone, you get them charged with rape.

Love consistency.

[Antiganon]

I do not think anyone ever claimed that it does absolve a robber or a rapist, but that doesn't mean that you as a victim aren't at fault too.
Maybe if we start pointing out this obvious fact then people become more careful and this would happen less.

People should be more careful in general, yes. The proper time to tell people that is BEFORE they are victimized, not AFTER. Saying it afterwards just makes you an asshole. Generally speaking, when you've been victimized in some way, the first (and most frequent) thing that crosses your mind is already "What could I have done differently to prevent this?"; there is no reason to rub your nose in it.

So that means that drunken sex isn't abhorrent The comparison isn't abhorrent, it is just pointing out something else that actually is abhorrent, the fact that some people believe that just because they got drunk that they are not responsible for their own actions.

I never said drunken sex (between two adults who are willing and able to consent) was abhorrent. I said that comparing drunken sex (as in too drunk to consent) to drunk driving (as in too drunk to drive), as though the inability to give consent also absolves you from responsibility for your actions in getting behind the wheel, is abhorrent. It is a false equivalency, and a patently offensive one at that.

I didn't know that something abhorrent needed have a significant number of people doing it before it gets abhorrent.. Sorry but that is just plainly stupid. If you are that drunk then you should not be trying to have sex, that is on you and you alone. If some other drunk person then has sex with you (that your drunken head consented to) you should not be able to blame it on them.

You are misrepresenting my statements to fit your imagined perception of what I am actually saying. I will put it plainly:

Do you have a source that indicates a significant percentage of reported rapes involving drunk victims are actually people who had consensual sex and regretted it later, or are you just spouting off nonsense talking points with no data to back them up?

Additionally - I notice you ignored all my other points about how everyone involved, including the police, other authority figures, and most importantly, the people having sex, should be better informed and make smarter decisions. Guess it didn't fit in your narrative.

[Freighter]

The problem is that you cant know how drunk someone is unless they are knocked out, especially when the other party is drunk too.

Yes, you can. It's not my problem if you are unable to tell when someone is shitfaced.

- - - Updated - - -

Here is the stupidity in the law. If you get drunk and drive, you get charged with a DUI.

If you get drunk and fuck someone, you get them charged with rape.

Love consistency.

Guess what, when you're driving under influence you are doing it yourself. It's not someone else doing something to you, like with rape. How can you not see the massive difference in doing something yourself and someone doing something to you?

[Vynny]

This is how the world used to work at least. Confusing how logic is a lost art. What do we do to both the drunk people in this bar? Lock them both up because they fucked while drunk?

No, it's to lock the guy up because obviously it's all his fault despite them both being drunk.

[Deleted]

People should be more careful in general, yes. The proper time to tell people that is BEFORE they are victimized, not AFTER. Saying it afterwards just makes you an asshole. Generally speaking, when you've been victimized in some way, the first (and most frequent) thing that crosses your mind is already "What could I have done differently to prevent this?"; there is no reason to rub your nose in it.

Generally speaking people will learn more from examples then warnings.

I never said drunken sex (between two adults who are willing and able to consent) was abhorrent. I said that comparing drunken sex to drunk driving, as though the inability to give consent also absolves you from responsibility for your actions in getting behind the wheel, is abhorrent. It is a false equivalency, and a patently offensive one at that.

5. Likening drunk sex and drunk driving is simply abhorrent

Yes you did, and no, it is not a false equivalency. You are responsible for your actions, even when you drink.

You are misrepresenting my statements to fit your imagined perception of what I am actually saying. I will put it plainly:

Do you have a source that indicates a significant percentage of reported rapes involving drunk victims are actually people who had consensual sex and regretted it later, or are you just spouting off nonsense talking points with no data to back them up?

No, you are not answering my question, how many people need to do something before it can become abhorrent. I never claimed that it was a large percentage or anything like that, that is a strawman that you like to attack.

Additionally - I notice you ignored all my other points about how everyone involved, including the police, other authority figures, and most importantly, the people having sex, should be better informed and make smarter decisions. Guess it didn't fit in your narrative.

I ignored it because it has no baring on this, this is about two people having sex while drunk and one person regretting it. That is all fine and dandy, but you do not get to blame some other drunk person for your inhibitions.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, you can. It's not my problem if you are unable to tell when someone is shitfaced.

- - - Updated - - -



Guess what, when you're driving under influence you are doing it yourself. It's not someone else doing something to you, like with rape. How can you not see the massive difference in doing something yourself and someone doing something to you?

Nope you can not, it is not my problem that you cant control your self when you are drunk.

[Freighter]

Nope you can not, it is not my problem that you cant control your self when you are drunk.

Yes, people generally can tell when someone is shitfaced, if you can't then the issue lies with you. I can perfectly control myself when drunk.

[hakujinbakasama]

Yes, you can. It's not my problem if you are unable to tell when someone is shitfaced.

- - - Updated - - -



Guess what, when you're driving under influence you are doing it yourself. It's not someone else doing something to you, like with rape. How can you not see the massive difference in doing something yourself and someone doing something to you?

Easy, change one word in your last sentence.

Replace "to" for "with." The context will feel dramatically different.

[Ahhdurr]

MMO rapist brigade charging this thread.

It's apparently really hard to not have sex with drunk and passed out women.

[hakujinbakasama]

MMO rapist brigade charging this thread.

It's apparently really hard to not have sex with drunk and passed out women.

The assumption is that she was "passed out." That's a hard thing to prove for both the defense and the prosecution. Conversely, there is a state in which you can be ambulatory and not cognitive. This is commonly referred to as "being black out drunk." There are countless stories and examples of this. Spend a weekend at any college for personal exposure.