Raid leaders/guilds and pugs why so many healers?

[Rigsy]

average pug im finding is doing this

normal mode Tos = 5 healers in 20 man why?
heroic mode 5 or 6 healers in 20 man why?
guild raid 6 healers normal mode 22 main, 5 healers or 6 heroic 22 man why?

if you see a sudden shortage in healers inside the game its because they all got bored with this .

[potis]

Because like it or not, the way the game has become on the easier modes especially Normal, you can carry most of the group if you simply outheal everything.

Or let me rephrase it, there is no problem having extra healers on fights where there are no tight DPS requirements if you group has enough DPS to carry the extra healer.

As example i raid in a casual guild, 35-40 year olds with children, afk every 5 minute, sometimes even mid-fight cause the kids refuse to sleep or wake up out of nowhere, most are decent players, some are not so decent.

I already have something like 2-3-11 or 12 in the raid, and one more logs in with his sub-par DPS for HC ToS, why would i not have him heal when the other 11-12 can carry him to make it easier for everyone instead of having a dead weight.

Not sure if actual "progress" guilds do what you describe but reality with ToS at least is that most fights can be outhealed cause there are no 1 shots mechanics, and the only personal boss, aka Maiden, you can start kicking half the pug group when they fuck up.

Also, if i pug i know someone will leave after the first wipe, whether its no trash, despite 1 shotting every boss till there, people are fucking retarded, its always easier to get something like 2-5-15, expecting 1-2 healers to drop out with a few DPS.

[anon5123]

I exclusively pug, and I've never seen any of the numbers you're suggesting commonly happen.

/shrug

why make a whine thread about this, though? I don't get it

[Puri]

I cannot say I have noticed any change since ToS, and 2/3/9 and 2/4/14 are still as common as during NH.

If there really is a shift towards more healers now then it's simply because the soft or hard enrage mechanics in ToS allow this and having redundant healers makes the run go smoother and allows for more gameplay errors, but take longer. For example at KJ people don't bother anymore about P1 mechanics, just be sure someone is in the small apocalypses and the raidwide damage and the dot is being healed against.

[durrtygoodz]

It's almost impossible to wipe to enrage timers on heroic with even half your raid alive so may as well include more healers to cover the raid with cooldowns in intense raid dmg phases. I joined a group for Sisters on my alt, 25 players with 6 healers, still wiped to lack of healing during debuffs. So yeah why wouldn't you just stack healers, if there's many signing up?

[Ifeanychukwu]

Haven't seen what you're talking about. Average is still 3 or 4 healers depending on the fight/difficulty. Also haven't seen a shortage of healers since ToS dropped, I was playing primarily boomkin from the beginning of Legion until the end of NH but since returning from a month long break and switching back to resto for the majority of raiding I've done in ToS I've seen an overabundance of healers.

[ReD-EyeD]

I'm struggling gathering 3 well geared healers for 2-3-9 kiljaeden and you're talking about 5? We're playing different games then.

[apelsinjuice]

Unless you have really bad group you will never wipe to enrage on hc, problem will always be something else so having extra healer often makes things easier

[kamuimac]

average pug im finding is doing this

normal mode Tos = 5 healers in 20 man why?
heroic mode 5 or 6 healers in 20 man why?
guild raid 6 healers normal mode 22 main, 5 healers or 6 heroic 22 man why?

if you see a sudden shortage in healers inside the game its because they all got bored with this .

its called playing safe

[laplacedemon]

I pretty much only see 2-2-6, 2-3-9, 2-4-14 nowadays, regardless if it's EN normal or ToV hc...

[Probably]

There's always two sides to the coin. I agree that when raids are overhealing content I get pissed off. I main a healer, and I like a challenge. Good healers always do.

But then there are the other players (majority) who just want to dps and tank. Having extra healers literally has no effect on them besides extending the fight duration.

I prefer to underheal content to make it spicy, but I understand the 1 healer to 5 player ratio. Anything higher than that and I leave. It usually indicates people don't have faith in the group and they want extra insurance.

[Drish]

We six healed mythic sisters, the kill was close to the enrage time but it allowed us a bunch of mistakes that would have otherwise wiped us. For a pug it's so you don't wipe, for a guild it's to reduce wipe count on progression.

[RestoSpirit]

Hey,

most of the important points have already been made here. Just want to give another healers opinion. It's correct pugs tend to overheal content, I think they do that for three reasons:
1. People in pugs tend to take the game not as serious as in a progress guild, simply because they have so many raids to choose from ("oh you want to kick me? no problem I will just queue another one")
2. As with everything skillbased you have a lot of "decent" healers, some pretty bad ones and very rarely you might have some really good ones in pugs (of course you have more people on the bad side cause the good ones raid in guilds). Which leads to the fear of pug-raidleaders to not have enough healing = they dont trust healers.
3. People wiping tend to blame healers first, because either they don't even understand/know the mechanic or they are scared they will be kicked out of the group if they admit that they failed something.

All of these reasons let to a system people put in place, commonly known as 2/3/9 or 2/4/14, which is fine for the most part since with decent healers you will probably make the enrage and keep everyone save.
There is a special case tho. Sometimes pug-raids get to play with some of the best players in wow (maybe they are trying some talents or playing alts) and when they say things like "I can probably solo-heal this" or "We don't need another healer, we can do that with 2". The raidleader has two options either he supports the healers or he invites another one. Usually the good healers will leave now since they like the challenge or they don't feel like they are appreciated enough. This in some cases leads to a certain unbalance in the healersetup, the bad healers stay because they really want to clear the content and the decent to good healers leave to look for a "better" raid, where they are appreciated. Which even more promotes the misconception people have that you need more healers.

For me personally I found two possible solutions to the problem:
1. You link the raidleader your mythic-kill acms and your logs and tell them "hey I know you just want to keep your raid smooth and save, but we 3 healed this boss on mythic as you can see, so im confident I can solo it on normal".
2. You make your own pug raids, preferably with friends who will support you.

Don't be afraid to leave groups. Fight for your rights as a healer. Don't let people blame you for failing or wiping. Find ways to teach people and tell people what they could do better or why the group is wiping with constructive criticism. There are A LOT of bad players who have the potential to become great with a little help. Always remember some of them don't even know the possibilites, show them what a good player can do with your class.

Why would you underheal a fight if you make the enrage timer anyway? Well that's pretty simple, its more fun for the healers. Trying new things, trying to push your limits is a great thing and should be supported. There are advantages for DPS too, if you underheal a fight you have more damage which leads to a shorter fight and a higher percentage of Bloodlust-uptime, which usually leads to better logs. In addition to that it makes everyone in the raid a better player, since they are forced to play mechanics right to succeed.


Cheers
RestoSpirit

[Onikaroshi]

We have about 20ish people on a good night, sometimes less, but have 5 healers.

Luckily we have one healer who can swing DPS, and does decent.

But as for the other 4...

Our disc priest tops meters every fight, usually by a long shot, and even though she would DPS, whenever she is gone our raids go like shit.

The other three CANNOT dps... so.... yea, it sucks but sometimes you get stuck with too many heals...

[Rigsy]

Hey,

most of the important points have already been made here. Just want to give another healers opinion. It's correct pugs tend to overheal content, I think they do that for three reasons:
1. People in pugs tend to take the game not as serious as in a progress guild, simply because they have so many raids to choose from ("oh you want to kick me? no problem I will just queue another one")
2. As with everything skillbased you have a lot of "decent" healers, some pretty bad ones and very rarely you might have some really good ones in pugs (of course you have more people on the bad side cause the good ones raid in guilds). Which leads to the fear of pug-raidleaders to not have enough healing = they dont trust healers.
3. People wiping tend to blame healers first, because either they don't even understand/know the mechanic or they are scared they will be kicked out of the group if they admit that they failed something.

All of these reasons let to a system people put in place, commonly known as 2/3/9 or 2/4/14, which is fine for the most part since with decent healers you will probably make the enrage and keep everyone save.
There is a special case tho. Sometimes pug-raids get to play with some of the best players in wow (maybe they are trying some talents or playing alts) and when they say things like "I can probably solo-heal this" or "We don't need another healer, we can do that with 2". The raidleader has two options either he supports the healers or he invites another one. Usually the good healers will leave now since they like the challenge or they don't feel like they are appreciated enough. This in some cases leads to a certain unbalance in the healersetup, the bad healers stay because they really want to clear the content and the decent to good healers leave to look for a "better" raid, where they are appreciated. Which even more promotes the misconception people have that you need more healers.

For me personally I found two possible solutions to the problem:
1. You link the raidleader your mythic-kill acms and your logs and tell them "hey I know you just want to keep your raid smooth and save, but we 3 healed this boss on mythic as you can see, so im confident I can solo it on normal".
2. You make your own pug raids, preferably with friends who will support you.

Don't be afraid to leave groups. Fight for your rights as a healer. Don't let people blame you for failing or wiping. Find ways to teach people and tell people what they could do better or why the group is wiping with constructive criticism. There are A LOT of bad players who have the potential to become great with a little help. Always remember some of them don't even know the possibilites, show them what a good player can do with your class.

Why would you underheal a fight if you make the enrage timer anyway? Well that's pretty simple, its more fun for the healers. Trying new things, trying to push your limits is a great thing and should be supported. There are advantages for DPS too, if you underheal a fight you have more damage which leads to a shorter fight and a higher percentage of Bloodlust-uptime, which usually leads to better logs. In addition to that it makes everyone in the raid a better player, since they are forced to play mechanics right to succeed.


Cheers
RestoSpirit

Thanks for this reply one of which i was looking for

[Deleted]

I personally think the question should be, "Blizzard, why are there five slots for healers in LFR?"

[Sylvaeres]

average pug im finding is doing this

normal mode Tos = 5 healers in 20 man why?
heroic mode 5 or 6 healers in 20 man why?
guild raid 6 healers normal mode 22 main, 5 healers or 6 heroic 22 man why?

if you see a sudden shortage in healers inside the game its because they all got bored with this .

Because it's better to overheal in a pug than bring the exact amount you should need, only to find you can't handle it

[Deleted]

good healers are rare nowadays ;(

[Korban]

As example i raid in a casual guild, 35-40 year olds with children, afk every 5 minute, sometimes even mid-fight cause the kids refuse to sleep or wake up out of nowhere, most are decent players, some are not so decent.

People with families should be banned from the game.

Go be a normie or play the game the game.

[Temp name]

A good amount of healers is 1 per 5 people total. On mythic you might bring 1 healer per 4 on the bosses with higher requirements.