Anti Immigration but Not Racist

[Rooflesstoofless]

Like who?

Fear of outsiders is xenophobia.

That's nice, we're not getting them in the us.

And this is the first time I've heard of Mexicans having socially destructive ideologies. Should we kick out all the Catholics?

No, not Mexicans as a whole smart guy, just anyone from there (or where ever) that has destructive ideologies. Gang members, criminals, religious extremists, people with high risk for needing public assistance, etc. If you're going to create a net loss for our society then stay out.

[Machismo]

Why do an unproportional amount of exceptionally violent gangs, such as MS 13, often have a Hispanic background. Maybe you are ignoring the possibility that mexican cultural my be inherently violent in nature.

And go ahead ad take Christians. I disagree with all religious ideologies.

Then you have another solution, legalize drugs. That would et rid of the profit incentive for gangs and organized crime.

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No, not Mexicans as a whole smart guy, just anyone from there (or where ever) that has destructive ideologies. Gang members, criminals, religious extremists, people with high risk for needing public assistance, etc. If you're going to create a net loss for our society then stay out.

If you want to deal with gangs, legalize drugs. That would do more to eliminate the threat of gangs in this country than anything else.

[nanook12]

Dude, give it up. You pretty much exposed your actual intentions with the 'Mexican culture may be inherently more violent' line.

Yeah, some cultures may be inherently violent. I know it is a radical thought in our current political atmosphere, but there are examples of fundamentally violent cultures in the past. Please keep in mind I did say "cultures" and not races. I do not believe races to be fundamentally violent.

[Noxx79]

Yeah, some cultures may be inherently violent. I know it is a radical thought in our current political atmosphere, but there are examples of fundamentally violent cultures in the past. Please keep in mind I did say "cultures" and not races. I do not believe races to be fundamentally violent.

And you have yet to provide any evidence for your ramblings. So much for being rational.

[AkundaMrdal]

I don't know about the US, but for germany it is an established fact that every immigrant is a net gain for the economy and that they pay more in taxes than they receive from the state.

If every immigrant is such a win for Germany, why are they forcing quotas and redistributing? Why don't they just take every single immigrant flooding into Europe?

[unbound]

The truth is that there are simply too many people in the United States and not enough resources and jobs to go around. Really both capitalism and socialism will work if the population is manageable.

Without an over abundant supply of workers, markets will be forced to adjust to paying workers a living wage. This is how capitalism is supposed to work.

With an over abundant supply of people using government welfare and social programs, the wealthy won't be taxed too highly and will keep job opportunities in said country. This is how socialism is supposed to work.

Clearly the problem arises when these two systems have a massive abundance of people.

People, especially immigrants, are quick to label others as "racists" whenever they give a hint that they are against immigration. I personally view this as a cheap card immigrants play in order to justify their coming to out lands. Illegals use this even more extensively in order to try an justify their own law breaking. Immigrants do not want to face the truth that there is a finite limit of people the US can reasonably and humanely support. It is much easier to just call people racists.

Personally, I do not care what race or religion you come from. I am against immigration from a simple numbers standpoint. I believe that liberals in general need to stop being afraid to be called racists and except that out country can only support finite amount of people.

The real problem the world over is that people irresponsibly breed too much.

Sigh...lots of naive libertarian concepts here.

Without an over abundant supply of workers, markets will be forced to adjust to paying workers a living wage. This is how capitalism is supposed to work.

Yes and no. In an environment with capitalist ideals operating, that would be true. However, that ideal does not exist in the real world. Workers compete against automation, and, in a dirty little secret, corporate HR talks to corporate HR of even their competitors to "make sure you get the salary you deserve" which, in reality, means that they are setting salaries with each other that are lower than they would normally be. This is to reduce pilfering of resources by competitors (which it does to an extent, but not 100%).

Furthermore, if this was a truly capitalist environment, you wouldn't see top level executive salaries anywhere near where they are today. A CEO would be making no more than a couple million (total compensation) today if there was the level of competition that you think there was.

With an over abundant supply of people using government welfare and social programs, the wealthy won't be taxed too highly and will keep job opportunities in said country.

lol...no, that isn't how it works at all.

I have hiring and firing authority in my corporation. I have never hired, and will never hire, because we made more money than expected in a given year. (BTW, since you haven't noticed, there are plenty of ridiculously wealthy Americans that constantly ship jobs overseas...so basic observation debunks that stated concept)

I hire because we sold new work, or I need to replace someone (or, exceptionally rare, it is cheaper to hire someone than deal with even bigger losses without having that person). Period. Where I hire depends on a variety of factors, including for what industry. If I'm dealing with retail, the store location may be adjusted slightly if building a few miles further away makes it cheaper, but I'm going to build that store regardless because I'm expecting to make money regardless of taxes. I have never been involved in a deal where a few percent different (from, say, taxes) in expected returns is a factor. There are virtually no businesses currently around that run based on single percentage margins. Sure, the financial report may show margins that low sometimes, but that is after the exorbitant top level executive take is included.

And automation keeps growing. Think low salaries will protect your job? Hahahahaha. Even China is replacing their workers with robots now (http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36376966).

The reality is that, unlike in the past, new enterprises use far less workers than what they replace. This is a relatively recent phenomenon (past few decades), and it only looks to be getting worse. (BTW, before pointing out Forbes nonsense article, keep in mind that when, for example, the auto industry started 100 years ago, more jobs were created overall - including things like auto mechanics, gas stations - than were lost for people dealing with horses and carriages) This is why you hear about things like Basic Income...it is a reality we are going to have to face.

People, especially immigrants, are quick to label others as "racists" whenever they give a hint that they are against immigration. I personally view this as a cheap card immigrants play in order to justify their coming to out lands.

Are you a racist? I have no idea as I don't know your personal reasons for such a stance. Are those against immigration typically (e.g. more than 50%) racist? Sure. We know that already.

Are most anti-immigrants against immigrants from the UK? Nope. Are they against immigrants from Germany? Nope.

The real problem the world over is that people irresponsibly breed too much.

And I end off with this...which I actually agree with. Most of our problems are caused by overpopulation. Unfortunately, trying to keep immigrants out of the country solves pretty much nothing at all.

[Thrif]

Love that you went from this

Personally, I do not care what race or religion you come from. I am against immigration from a simple numbers standpoint.

to this

How about your women being raped and the uptick in violence due to cultural differences colliding and not mixing?

in literally one post. But hey, no, you obviously doesn't have any negative opinions about immigrants further than simple math.

[Deleted]

No, it doesn't actually claim that.

Sure it does.

Doch diese absoluten Zahlen, sosehr sie auch beunruhigen mögen, sind nur bedingt aussagekräftig. Man muss sie ins Verhältnis zur Gesamtzahl der Zuwanderer aus dem jeweiligen Herkunftsland setzen

You forgot to address my arguments.

You actually didnt bring any arguments. You literally just posted a FAZ article that attacked a TAZ article as being "fake news", which was debunked by TAZ afterwards.

You brought no proofs and no arguments.

Now you got me confused. Was the cologne silvester party an mass event were an unusual increase in incidents happened compared to other mass events or wasn't it?

It was a desaster, as i wrote. A massive incident which lead to hundreds of sexual offenses.

The thing just is: It doesnt counter any of my arguments i brought that immigration was a large success in germany. Both from an economical point of view and based on the fact we helped hundred thousands of people to escape from war.

I nowhere questioned that the cologne event happens. It just had absolutely no influence on the criminal statistics and it had no influence on the rape statistics.

Why should I visit a place were outrageous amounts of rape happen? (Source: you)

Over the years. I am sure it will be safe for you, friend. I know that racism is sourced in anger. Dont be afraid.

[Rooflesstoofless]

Which is precisely why the 'takers' on the illegal immigration side are pretty much propping up the agriculture and domestic service industries in this country.

Fun fact: There are no 'givers' and 'takers' in society. If you are a consumer, you are contributing. Complaining that they aren't contributing because they don't have a job or aren't as well educated as you'd like is the same bullshit that has been used to discriminate against immigrant populations like the Irish and some non-immigrant populations like African Americans for decades.

Get a new line.

Yes, there are givers and takers unless you think welfare queens and entrepreneurs have the same value in society.

[Endus]

And the bashing begins.

"Bashing"? There's a link there. It leads to reports and studies and so forth.

Lets forget the fact that they are a peer reviewed organization.

This is a meaningless phrase. Organizations are not "peer reviewed", studies are.

The more mature and adult way to look at this is to accept that did the study with honest truthful academic intent and the results just happen to fall in favor of white supremacist groups.

Did you miss the subsequent points I highlighted which made it clear they were not arguing honestly in this particular study? Or are you ignoring them to carry water for white supremacists, deliberately?

[Miyagie]

I'm not anti-Immigration. I'm anti-Mass Immigration.

Mass Immigration is something that dont exist because 100.000 people cant nor will immigrate to a different society.

[NineSpine]

MS 13 is a group that actually exists and has Latin America origins. Although I am not in favor of religion, good luck find a Christian group that is similar to MS 13.

Ever heard of the Lord's Resistance Army?

The conservative Christian wing of the American political system started an unprovoked war that killed over 1M people and destabilized an entire region of the world, eventually leading to the worst refugee crisis since WWII.

[Endus]

If every immigrant is such a win for Germany, why are they forcing quotas and redistributing? Why don't they just take every single immigrant flooding into Europe?

If drinking water is healthy, why can't you go sit underwater for a few hours? Why don't they just drink an entire river at once?

Same kind of nonsense argument.

[Deleted]

MS 13 is a group that actually exists and has Latin America origins. Although I am not in favor of religion, good luck find a Christian group that is similar to MS 13.

The Klu Klux Klan. The difference is that the Klu Klux Klan killed 4600 people.

[NineSpine]

Yes, there are givers and takers unless you think welfare queens and entrepreneurs have the same value in society.

It depends what the person on welfare does and what the entrepreneur does. An entrepreneur who runs payday loan scams certainly has less value for society than someone on welfare who spends their free time volunteering at a homeless shelter.

[Rooflesstoofless]

Then you have another solution, legalize drugs. That would et rid of the profit incentive for gangs and organized crime.

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If you want to deal with gangs, legalize drugs. That would do more to eliminate the threat of gangs in this country than anything else.

I totally agree with you on that but we still have the problem of religious extremism and we already have plenty of our own right wing nutters already.

[Deleted]

Germany is a way smaller country with 80 million people and we took 1,5 mio immigrants in 2015.

And we had no negative effect on our economy.

Delusion is strong in this one. Cost of immigration was 22 billion in 2016 and is projected to remain on that yearly level even without further immigration.

One of a million sources: https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschl...rden-Euro.html

[Bighud44]

Germany is a way smaller country with 80 million people and we took 1,5 mio immigrants in 2015.

And we had no negative effect on our economy. And we have social market economy, which still works like a charm. And our economic growth is bigger than ever before.

We are the prime practical counter proof to your made up idea you cant back up.

And look at the state of your country now....Its is getting destroyed and falling apart.

Your economy isnt working like a charm, if it was you wouldn't rely on America and wouldn't have complained when we withdrew from the Parish Climate. Since we do, you get nothing from us.

[Krigaren]

Is this discussion about immigration, or about the idea of taking in refugees?

Aside from the illegal alien debate, the only reason "immigration" as it applies to countries outside North/South America has come up, has been in response to countries taking in refugees from worn torn areas like Syria. In fact, within the first handful of responses to this thread, someone was talking about all of the supposedly terrible things happening in Germany due to "immigrants".

Let's be clear: There's a difference between open-boarder immigration policy, and a country being open to refugees. Those are not the same classification of people. The former specifically chooses and petitions the host country, while the former often has little to absolute no choice where they end up. The former is a privilege, the other is a humanitarian necessity.

If you want to argue that we should limit the number of immigrants we allow into the US, then that's fine. We do that already, and maybe there's room for debate on restricting it further.

If you want to argue that we should ban muslims from certain countries who are coming here through a multi-national refugee program, then you're a racist SOB and there's not much more to discuss.

[NineSpine]

And look at the state of your country now....Its is getting destroyed and falling apart.

Your economy isnt working like a charm, if it was you wouldn't rely on America and wouldn't have complained when we withdrew from the Parish Climate. Since we do, you get nothing from us.

The fact that the U.S. has a massive trade deficit with Germany means that Germany is winning, not the other way around.