Vengeance WITHOUT Spirit Bomb

[Synthium]

I already gave you an alternate build.

But guess what? It still requires you to do a "dps rotation". Every tank spec in the game requires you to do a "dps rotation". I don't understand what you want? A tank spec where you a hit a taunt button and go afk outside of hitting a cd now and then?

Guess what happens when you hit Soul Cleave instead of Spirit Bomb? You just did AoE damage and self healing. The exact same things you did when you hit Spirit Bomb.

First of all, I didn't respond to you at all. This was a response to a guy telling me about the other way I can view the SB build. As for what you've said, it's just a pile of total drivel and that's all I will say about it.

[Tech614]

First of all, I didn't respond to you at all. This was a response to a guy telling me about the other way I can view the SB build. As for what you've said, it's just a pile of total drivel and that's all I will say about it.

I could care less who your reply was to, it was a load of crap. "I don't want to have to do a dps rotation on my tank waaaaaaah!" You must be that guy when I invite a 930 tank who only does 200k dps afking half the fight because "I'm a tank I don't need to dps" coincidentally these tanks also get trucked because obtaining resources needed to tank is tied to doing damage.

Show me a tank spec that isn't required to do a DPS rotation and prove it's drivel.

Good luck with that. Literally every tank has their AM and CDs off the global because they are required and expected to maintain a proper rotation. It's 2017 not 2004.

[Synthium]

I could care less who your reply was to, it was a load of crap. "I don't want to have to do a dps rotation on my tank waaaaaaah!" You must be that guy when I invite a 930 tank who only does 200k dps afking half the fight because "I'm a tank I don't need to dps" coincidentally these tanks also get trucked because obtaining resources needed to tank is tied to doing damage.

Show me a tank spec that isn't required to do a DPS rotation and prove it's drivel.

Good luck with that. Literally every tank has their AM and CDs off the global because they are required and expected to maintain a proper rotation. It's 2017 not 2004.

Dude... OF FUCKING COURSE that I need to press IA, Shear and SC. It's a FUCKING GIVEN. I don't want to be afk. I just do not want a talent build that gives me 2 additional spells (in an already busy tank spec) that feel like AoE dps rotation. Is that clear or do I need to further explain? You actually thought that I want to press Spikes and go afk? Do I need to draw everything for you or can you conclude that some things are given?

[Tech614]

Dude... OF FUCKING COURSE that I need to press IA, Shear and SC. It's a FUCKING GIVEN. I don't want to be afk. I just do not want a talent build that gives me 2 additional spells (in an already busy tank spec) that feel like AoE dps rotation. Is that clear or do I need to further explain? You actually thought that I want to press Spikes and go afk? Do I need to draw everything for you or can you conclude that some things are given?

SB Rotation: IA, Shear, Fracture, Spirit Bomb
SC Rotation: IA, Shear, Soul Cleave

2 is the new 1?

"Busy tank spec" is hilarious because it's actually one of the more simple tank specs to play rotationally. In BOTH builds.

Get called out for your own comments and quickly change tune to something equally as laughable. You have done nothing but respond combative to people trying to help you in this thread. I think we're done here. Have fun, maybe get the guy who wrote the BC BM 1 button macro to try to work something up for you /shrug.

[Synthium]

SB Rotation: IA, Shear, Fracture, Spirit Bomb
SC Rotation: IA, Shear, Soul Cleave

2 is the new 1?

"Busy tank spec" is hilarious because it's actually one of the more simple tank specs to play rotationally. In BOTH builds.

Get called out for your own comments and quickly change tune to something equally as laughable. You have done nothing but respond combative to people trying to help you in this thread. I think we're done here. Have fun, maybe get the guy who wrote the BC BM 1 button macro to try to work something up for you /shrug.

You're the only one I have responded to at all (save for one clarification response mid-thread, the one you attached yourself to), I have asked a question and observed other people's opinions without feeling the need to type 'thanks' to everyone for his/her input.

Thank god we are done here. Maybe try to work on your reading comprehension skills next time we meet, maybe your comments won't come across as smug as they have here.

[Delimit]

"Busy tank spec" is hilarious because it's actually one of the more simple tank specs to play rotationally. In BOTH builds.

Relative to what?

Devastator Warrior - Shield Slam + Revenge + Thunder Clap (auto attack builds...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)
Guardian - Thrash + Mangle + Swipe + Moonfire + occasional Maul
Paladin - AS + Judgement + Consecrate + Hammer (SoTR is damage + AM button)
Brewmaster - KS + BoF + TP + BS (throw in RJW in AOE)
VDH - IA + Shear + Fracture + Bomb + SoF + IS (nevermind that Soul Cleave still gets pressed)

Yes, VDH is a "busy tank spec", it's part of what makes the spec appealing to some people. "hilarious"

[Tech614]

Relative to what?

Devastator Warrior - Shield Slam + Revenge + Thunder Clap (auto attack builds...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)
Guardian - Thrash + Mangle + Swipe + Moonfire + occasional Maul
Paladin - AS + Judgement + Consecrate + Hammer (SoTR is damage + AM button)
Brewmaster - KS + BoF + TP + BS (throw in RJW in AOE)
VDH - IA + Shear + Fracture + Bomb + SoF + IS (nevermind that Soul Cleave still gets pressed)

Yes, VDH is a "busy tank spec", it's part of what makes the spec appealing to some people. "hilarious"

I stopped reading when you said "throw in RJW in aoe" LUL If you talent RJW on a brewmaster it's part of your rotation no matter ST or AoE. Your monk knowledge is non existent, your Warrior knowledge is laughable since no one is going to run devastator for progression, you don't even bother to list blood(probably cause you can't even fathom it). You did get bear right, so I guess I found a fotm bear reroller from last patch.

There is nothing busy about the spec, Sco who obviously knows nothing about tanking even agrees with me it's the easiest and most noob friendly tank spec to play. Having a lot of buttons does not make something "busy". If you fuck up a SoF cd, or an IS cd the impact on your gameplay is non existent. All you need to do is maintain to base rotation good to play at 90% efficiency. The only spec arguably as forgiving is guardian.

Didn't you know tho? Having a lot of 30s-1 min CD buttons makes your spec super hard to play Whatever keeps you up at night. The thing keeping people from playing VDH is not it being hard to play, and that's not the reason people play it either.

[Delimit]

I stopped reading when you said "throw in RJW in aoe" LUL If you talent RJW on a brewmaster it's part of your rotation no matter ST or AoE. Your monk knowledge is non existent, your Warrior knowledge is laughable since no one is going to run devastator for progression, you don't even bother to list blood(probably cause you can't even fathom it). You did get bear right, so I guess I found a fotm bear reroller from last patch.

There is nothing busy about the spec, Sco who obviously knows nothing about tanking even agrees with me it's the easiest and most noob friendly tank spec to play. Having a lot of buttons does not make something "busy". If you fuck up a SoF cd, or an IS cd the impact on your gameplay is non existent. All you need to do is maintain to base rotation good to play at 90% efficiency. The only spec arguably as forgiving is guardian.

Didn't you know tho? Having a lot of 30s-1 min CD buttons makes your spec super hard to play Whatever keeps you up at night. The thing keeping people from playing VDH is not it being hard to play, and that's not the reason people play it either.

The point was that you don't always talent for RJW, of course you're pressing it if it's talented. I know it's difficult, but try to keep up. If necessary, we can put it in picture book format for you. Your Warrior knowledge is laughable, since plenty of people run Devastator for progression. (nobody used a progression qualifier anyway) All of them were correct, have you ever played another tank spec other than Brewmaster? (I know you like to post your clueless trolling over there as well)

Did you just try to use the guy who put Prot Warrior below Vengeance in ToS as your source? Talk about laughable...

Having a lot of buttons does not make something "busy".

Having lots of buttons to press doesn't make you busy. Um, that's the very definition of "busy", kiddo.

And yes, the fact that the spec is "busy" is what draws many people to it.

[Axisotaku]

I personally love SB for tanking (I think they need to change SC cause its 100% useless right now) it's too bad it keeps getting nerfed though... Being relevant on the meters is awesome. I don't know about other tanks, but I know for us the rotation might be simple at first glance, but there are still a lot of things you can do to increase efficiency that most people don't bother with. Like infernal strike being only half a gcd, maximizing FB duration, lining up cds for it and the whole soul management to not go over 5. These are all simple things, but they add up and that's just to maximize dps, you still gotta do your tank job and compared to most other classes, I know VDH aren't as resilient in some situations. (I don't really mind that as long as we can keep our awesome damage)

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Don't mean to be rude or anything but I don't want to be told how to feel about the playstyle. I don't feel like a tank. As a tank, I don't like dpsing, I like turtling and defending myself. I do plenty of DPS-ing on my main, when I log my tank or respec to a different spec on my main, I want to turtle. Spirit Bomb and Fracture to me feel like an AoE rotation of a DPS spec with some healing included into the mix. That is of course just my perception of it, but I can't escape it no matter how much I want it to be something else.

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they remain your limitations."
You've already admitted the difference is in your mind.
If pressing a button will give you damage resistance, self healing, leech for more healing, and do some immediate damage to take advantage of the leech, that all sounds very tanky to me. If you are blinded by the fact that it does some damage to the enemy along the way, that is a mental barrier you have built for yourself which doesn't exist in the game itself.

[nerf shaman]

Sparkle added the bonus from one of gold trait which heals us for 15% of all fire damage dealt : Charred Warblades (20% Leech + 15% trait = 35%).

Read your weapon people...

SB is fire damage, it will always win.

In a discussion talking about whether or not you take sb, the difference in leech is 20%. You can't count sb as giving you 35%, because it doesn't.

[MookieRah]

Except for the fact that you are wrong and you are effectively getting 35% due to it being a fire attack. Fragility gives you 20%, but sb is still fire damage. To say that the fire part doesn't count because it is baked into the class makes 0 sense... They specifically changed sb from shadow to fire so that it gave more leech... (I think it was shadow, but it was not originally fire is my point.)

[Ealyssa]

In a discussion talking about whether or not you take sb, the difference in leech is 20%. You can't count sb as giving you 35%, because it doesn't.

You can make up your own little math in your head as much as you want.

SB will still make all fire damage heal you of 35% of their damage. Period.

[nerf shaman]

You can make up your own little math in your head as much as you want.

SB will still make all fire damage heal you of 35% of their damage. Period.

SB gives you 20% leech. Period. No made up math here fam. You're the one making shit up

Except for the fact that you are wrong and you are effectively getting 35% due to it being a fire attack. Fragility gives you 20%, but sb is still fire damage. To say that the fire part doesn't count because it is baked into the class makes 0 sense... They specifically changed sb from shadow to fire so that it gave more leech... (I think it was shadow, but it was not originally fire is my point.)

Doesn't matter. You would fill those globals with soul cleave otherwise. If you play the soul cleave build you actually heal more than spirit bomb, it just doesn't give the same damage/mitigation

[A-sayo]

SB gives you 20% leech. Period. No made up math here fam. You're the one making shit up

I believe no one here is wrong. You are right in the sense that SB gives you 20%.

SB will still make all fire damage heal you of 35% of their damage. Period.

What Ealyssa forgot to mention is that, without SB, we only heal for 15% of fire damage INSTEAD of 35%, meaning 20% less leech.

So, for the SB part, everyone is right and no one is wrong.

[Alucarddp]

Good morning everyone

I was hoping that you guys can look at my character and tell me what you think?

Regarding legendry’s I only have 3 at this stage and working on the farm for more.

Content I am doing with it is mainly M+ dung and then 2 nights a week Raid we clear normal and progress on HC

en-gb/character/shadowsong/sakuradp

I am going to go through my talents and just give reasons for my picks

Tier 1 (Level 99) Talents
Abyssal Strike provides a large mobility boost. love this ability feels so bad ass using it kiting boss or reaching adds fast it amazing for me

Tier 2 (Level 100) Talents
Currently using Fallout but think it’s wrong and should use burning Alive with my setup?

Tier 3 (Level 102) Talents
Using Flame Crash for M+ it helps getting Agro also adds to the bad ass effect

Tier 4 (Level 104) Talents
Feed the Demon I started off with this talent and just grew use to having Demon spikes whenever I want it up for boss damage reduction. Is Fracture still so strong with Sprit Bomb Nerf?

Tier 5 (Level 106) Talents

Currently using Sigil of chains but I swap out with Quickened sigils every now and again
The ability to steal 1 of the most iconic DK spells is very nice

Tier 6 (Level 108) Talents
Picked this to not having another button on my action bar but when I switch this out getting my pain up takes so much longer spec feels allot slower without it

Tier 7 (Level 110) Talents
Picked Last Resort mainly for not having another button on action bar but I actually use this more than I thought I would by double soaking when needed taking double stacks I recall our kill on Avatar the other tank died and we were limited in space so I leaped into the fire boss did not destroy any platform and got back into place without dying thanks to this proc

[MookieRah]

Not sure why you wouldn't take sb outside of certain mythic tomb bosses, and possibly heroic kj. Everyone that is promoting the benefits of the slight boost to survivability without sb fail to mention the massive loss in dps incurred whenever you have swapped. Considering all the cds, talents, and itemization there is available I just don't see how anyone can justify it outside of specific cases.

[Tech614]

Not sure why you wouldn't take sb outside of certain mythic tomb bosses, and possibly heroic kj. Everyone that is promoting the benefits of the slight boost to survivability without sb fail to mention the massive loss in dps incurred whenever you have swapped. Considering all the cds, talents, and itemization there is available I just don't see how anyone can justify it outside of specific cases.

The DPS difference is negligible on any fight where you can't pop FB blindly on cd and need to save it for certain moments. 5 soul SB barely hit's harder then fracture these days when FB isn't up.

The cookie cutter SB build is a big dps increase when you're facing farm content that you just run in and blow FB/Meta off the hop on. Not so much on progression when you're saving your defensives for... defensive purposes. The FTD/BT build is less reliant on the pain gen from meta for dps as it already rolls in pain, and less reliant on FB uptime as you reduce the amount of fire damage in your rotation.

The cookie cutter SB build is also a huge survival increase in multi mob situations like Mistress and M+ so it should always be ran there, but if you're arguing someone should be taking the fight for ST progression in Tomb well, no that's not even close to required and pretty sure the most progressed VDH isn't using that build on most fights.

[Taladendren]

If you want to "turtle" and "feel tanky", reroll a bear. You're playing the wrong class. A good deal of our self healing with spirit bomb is now leech based, much moreso than it had been in the past with charred warblades.

I wouldn't say spirit bomb is *required* on single target progression in ToS, but is probably better than FTD/BT (assuming you have the legendary pants). If you're running pants and demon infusion, you FTD is mostly a waste because you can already get 85%+ effective uptime very easily for fights where it matters. So why bother..? If you don't have the pants, I'd consider on something like avatar where there's constant moderately heavy damage going out.

However, the extra fragments from fracture is a real mitigation advantage - painbringer uptime is real mitigation, along with steady application of the 2-piece with spb. You'd expect FTD/BT to have better healing just you have more pain to work with because you get punched in face harder.

For mythic+, there's no question you're gimping yourself if you're not running spirit bomb almost everything. If you don't like how spirit bomb plays, I seriously think you should shelve your DH until we go through another design iteration.

Just tried the raid tanking dummy - 60 stacks with spb/DI build. Anyone care to beat that with BT/FTD? I'm 930 equipped for reference.

[Vynestra]

lol apparently it was the dungeon one, going to try out the raider one and see what I can do

I only suck




edit: Yeah only about 40-45 stacks with no buffs or anything lol. Sometimes when you derp, you derp hard. :<

Yall talking about this made me think, when I first started playing veng I got 52 on the dungeon one, so I went ahead and at 927 ilvl tried the raiding dummy...

http://imgur.com/cziN9fc (also yes my details meter was recording healing done - but was on overall and hadn't moved for some time, so not I didn't come in and just taunt it while someone else was doing it).

I died at 77 right before he uber striked. (Might've been able to last longer if I didn't use the snipping tool lol)