Going forward on Healthcare for the U.S what should be done?

[Schattenlied]

I mean for example last year I slipped with a knife and cut my finger. Being diabetic I had to goto the ER because it was 9pm to make sure I wasn't going to bleed to death. The ER bill was $600 which the VA covered for me. However the ER Dr bill came later and was for another $600. I got 2 stitches to fix the wound which the doctor didn't do. He came in and took one look at it without even touching it said "we'll fix you right up." and then he left. The nurses did all the work. So that ER doctor got paid $600. There was no negotiating on the price or anything. I don't have insurance because I'm seen by the VA and it meets the requirements for health insurance. However when the ER dr bill comes separate about a month after the ER bill they wouldn't cover that. Maybe that $600 fee could be severely reduced to around $150 since the doctor didn't even do anything. Maybe it's time for the government to regulate what doctors can charge for things.

This... The doctor was in there for probably all of 20 seconds and they charged you $600 for it.

They should absolutely not be able to charge such obscene prices for shit like that... Free market works great for things where there is a lot of competition because competition drives down prices, Medical is not one of those things... In medical care most people have 1 hospital within reasonable travel distance and they will price gouge the shit out of you because they base all their absurdly high prices on the assumption that insurance will cover it (and those absurdly high prices will also will make a single payer healthcare system from the govt prohibitively expensive to support without equally absurd taxes).

God forbid you need an ambulance on top of that, throw another $1,000-$2,000 onto the bill.

[Cruor]

You first.

I know that a lot of people are particularly ignorant of history, but there is a reason that civil unrest has become something of an exception in the West as opposed to a chronic issue; quite a lot of that is due to the fact that, owing to highly developed civil services that manage public assistance and social welfare, most people aren't in a situation where it is revolt or die.

The key term here is social investment. People who are taken care of by society whether through public assistance or just infrastructure generally have a vested interest in that society's preservation and stability; people who the system ignores or are actively discriminated against by it will feel just the opposite. They have no investment in society, therefore they will undermine it at every available opportunity. Why do you think poor people tend to engage in a lot of antisocial behavior like vandalism or theft at a far higher rate?

Not letting people die of easily preventable causes means that society as a whole is more stable, and ultimately more prosperous. You have healthier workers with more money in their pockets to spend on encouraging economic growth, who have an interest in being law abiding and wanting social stability. It is an investment in the exact sense; an upfront capital and continuous operating expense that pays far higher dividends in the long term.

I thought conservatives understood finance?

The problem is, that too many people get on the welfare system and "can't work" Look at all the people on this forum with enormous posts counts who just sit home on mmo champion and video games all day, being paid for by the tax payer. Why is it they can read, write, and have full use of their hands but can't work? Did you see the response I got when I asked Why can't you work in a thread a while back? Very few were due to some horrible injury or some incurable disease. Most are high functioning with some slight mental issue, and rather than working through it they just live off the tax payer because that's the easy route.

Your solution is just pay poor people and then they won't commit crimes. My solution is just gun down criminals. My solution is cheaper. Once people saw enough thieves, vandals, and muggers die, they would get their act together and work, or die themselves. Problem solved. I would trade a short time of chaos for a lasting period of order and a better system where taxes would be far lower due to the virtual elimination of welfare.

[Hiricine]

I've never bought health insurance pre Obama care, and I've only gotten it through my employer since, and went 4 years without health insurance without a single healthcare charge outside of a dentist in that period of time. Not that I necessarily recommend going without insurance, but it worked out pretty well for me (this was pre penalty "tax", which they technically can't make you pay)

I'm relatively fortunate (and more intelligent) than most people that I work in a field where I can basically get hired anywhere in the US at any point in time under new health coverage if I want it, though the downside is that its difficult to find a place that will compensate you to NOT get insured under them, since its such a huge tax deduction in the favor of the company.

My tip to anyone who is remotely close to buying a plan in the marketplace--- Look into Health sharing ministries. Its not "insurance" per-se but it exempts you from the Obamacare insurance requirement, the premiums are far cheaper than even employer plans for the most part, and it saves a lot of money because it doesn't cover things like contraception or drug treatment. If you want the closest thing to "old" insurance you can get, this is it.

[Elegiac]

The problem is, that too many people get on the welfare system and "can't work" Look at all the people on this forum with enormous posts counts who just sit home on mmo champion and video games all day, being paid for by the tax payer.

A priori assumption with no evidence; moreover, of the sample size that is MMO-Champion exactly how do you think that scales up to a population of over three hundred and twenty million?

Why is it they can read, write, and have full use of their hands but can't work? Did you see the response I got when I asked Why can't you work in a thread a while back? Very few were due to some horrible injury or some incurable disease. Most are high functioning with some slight mental issue, and rather than working through it they just live off the tax payer because that's the easy route.

We all live off the tax payer, ultimately. Moreover, even if such people existed they represent such an infinitesimal proportion of the total that actually use public assistance as it is intended that you're basically advocating throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Nor do I see how letting people slide into financial ruin due to the cost of healthcare equates to moral hazard.

Your solution is just pay poor people and then they won't commit crimes. My solution is just gun down criminals. My solution is cheaper. Once people saw enough thieves, vandals, and muggers die, they would get their act together and work, or die themselves. Problem solved. I would trade a short time of chaos for a lasting period of order and a better system where taxes would be far lower due to the virtual elimination of welfare.

Which makes your worldview utterly disgusting and reprehensible, go figure.

Humanity has already tried social systems in which minor crimes are punished with mutilation or execution; did that stop chronic civil unrest let alone crime? No. The closest you get is police states wherein everyone is monitored constantly, which is antithetical to the very idea of liberty.

I'm willing to wager you live in a red state, honestly. Which means it isn't -your- tax money going to public assistance.

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This... The doctor was in there for probably all of 20 seconds and they charged you $600 for it.

They should absolutely not be able to charge such obscene prices for shit like that... Free market works great for things where there is a lot of competition because competition drives down prices, Medical is not one of those things... In medical care most people have 1 hospital within reasonable travel distance and they will price gouge the shit out of you because they base all their absurdly high prices on the assumption that insurance will cover it (and those absurdly high prices will also will make a single payer healthcare system from the govt prohibitively expensive to support without equally absurd taxes).

God forbid you need an ambulance on top of that, throw another $1,000-$2,000 onto the bill.

This is one of the reasons Kaiser Permanente and similar institutions are doing much better in terms of keeping costs down; doctors there are salaried rather than paid per visit.

[Surfd]

For the USA?

Burn the entire thing to the ground. ALL OF IT. Every single thing that is part of the current Health Care establishment.

Then re-build it for government backed single payer.

It's literally the only way you will ever fix the system.

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Yeah, YOU pay for that. I don't want my taxes spent on it, thanks.

I will take you up on that offer, just as long as you don't get to touch anything the evil socialist healthcare program provides.

Just be sure to let me know where you or your family are when you get into your first major medical incident, and end up bankrupt and destitute because your medical bills came out to significantly more then you, or your entire family for several generations could possibly afford, so that I can be sure to drop by and point and laugh.

[Doctor Amadeus]

For the USA?

Burn the entire thing to the ground. ALL OF IT. Every single thing that is part of the current Health Care establishment.

Then re-build it for government backed single payer.

It's literally the only way you will ever fix the system.

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I will take you up on that offer, just as long as you don't get to touch anything the evil socialist healthcare program provides.

Just be sure to let me know where you or your family are when you get into your first major medical incident, and end up bankrupt and destitute because your medical bills came out to significantly more then you, or your entire family for several generations could possibly afford, so that I can be sure to drop by and point and laugh.

What of those sitting in that Healthcare system that will burn along with it?

What do they do in the mean time if they can't afford to wait for this change and pay with their lives?

[Surfd]

Repeal it. If congress can't do a full repeal atleast get rid of the individual mandate. Nobody should be forced to have healthcare if they don't want to.

Yes, actually, they should. See, here is the thing. Unless you are paying for 100% of everything involved in treating you for any health issue you receive medical assistance for, then you are taking money from someone who did (either through taxes where people have government healthcare, or as part of a HMO or Insurance Group Policy in places like the States, or possibly both, depending on where the hospitals claim payment of their bills from).

And since literally 0 people (short of someone who owns their own private hospital or something) pay for 100% of their own medical costs, that means that if you expect to get medical treatment, you should be paying into the system in some form or another if you are able. And since the USA does not do Universal Healthcare, that leaves being required to have insurance.

Anything else is just straight up mooching off the backs of other people.

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What of those sitting in that Healthcare system that will burn along with it?

What do they do in the mean time if they can't afford to wait for this change and pay with their lives?

Provide them with some kind of safety net to bridge the gap.

The sad truth is, the American Healthcare system is so badly fucked up, that you are not going to "Fix" the existing model. Its like trying to fix a house where the foundation is cracked, the support beams are all rotten, and every square inch of it is infested with termites, and all the proposed solutions are to throw some drywall on it, paint over it, and go "hey, look at my pretty new house". Eventually, it will just all fall down on top of your head.

Move the residents into a temporary shelter, burn the old shithole to the ground, and re-build it properly. It is the only way you end up with a sound structure to live in.

[RaoBurning]

What of those sitting in that Healthcare system that will burn along with it?

What do they do in the mean time if they can't afford to wait for this change and pay with their lives?

Obviously you don't burn it down until the building is empty, so to speak. Only, ahem, some people, are callous enough to leave people to suffer or die while attempting to change a delicate situation.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Obviously you don't burn it down until the building is empty, so to speak. Only, ahem, some people, are callous enough to leave people to suffer or die while attempting to change a delicate situation.

Gotcha, no I wouldn't assume you would But it is a serious concern, some don't have that ability which is why even though I pay more for medical insurance, I rather do that until the problem can be fixed.

[Gestopft]

Short Term: address individual markets with subsidies and/or public option
Medium Term: begin rate-setting
Longer Term: single-payer

If enough political momentum is built up, maybe we can pull off the bandage, as it were, and go straight to single-payer, but I don't usually consider a rapid structural change of that magnitude to be responsible policy making.

[Zan15]

Lot of people want single payer. I guess they are cool with a 20-30% tax increase then since it is for the better good. It's really the only option unfortunately, but man will it be unpopular once everyone starts paying for it, and also will always be attributed to the democrats and Obama specifically. Talk about a legacy killer.

And yet every example of single payer in the world spend multiples less the we do. How in the world would you are an tax increase.

If anything at best you would a tax increase offset by a huge savings in the cost of healthcare and insurance to the point you, companies and the govt would be spending 20 to 30 percent less.....

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Here is my heath care plan:

You get a job with a good health plan, or you pay for any medical expenses with your own damn money. If you get sick or injured and can't pay for it, ask liberals for their money. If they won't pay, die in the gutter. A simple, solid, and fair plan.

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Yeah, YOU pay for that. I don't want my taxes spent on it, thanks.

Fine I don't want my money spent on the military.
You pay for that and I will pay for healthcare....deal?

I don't want my taxes to pay for some corporate tax break..you pay for that I will pay for healthcare...deal?

I don't want my taxes to pay the salaries of Congress....you pay for that I'll pay for healthcare...deal?

I am sure there are a lot of things you don't want your taxes to be paying for.....

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Repealing the Obamacare mandates and then passing a law that outlaws any such mandates from being implemented ever again would be a great start.

Hope you like giving up social security and Medicare too...you know those mandated insurance products you pay into for 65 years till you can use them....they have been around for 52 years mandiating their little asses off....without a peep

[Taso]

Yes, actually, they should. See, here is the thing. Unless you are paying for 100% of everything involved in treating you for any health issue you receive medical assistance for, then you are taking money from someone who did (either through taxes where people have government healthcare, or as part of a HMO or Insurance Group Policy in places like the States, or possibly both, depending on where the hospitals claim payment of their bills from).

And since literally 0 people (short of someone who owns their own private hospital or something) pay for 100% of their own medical costs, that means that if you expect to get medical treatment, you should be paying into the system in some form or another if you are able. And since the USA does not do Universal Healthcare, that leaves being required to have insurance.

Anything else is just straight up mooching off the backs of other people.

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Provide them with some kind of safety net to bridge the gap.

The sad truth is, the American Healthcare system is so badly fucked up, that you are not going to "Fix" the existing model. Its like trying to fix a house where the foundation is cracked, the support beams are all rotten, and every square inch of it is infested with termites, and all the proposed solutions are to throw some drywall on it, paint over it, and go "hey, look at my pretty new house". Eventually, it will just all fall down on top of your head.

Move the residents into a temporary shelter, burn the old shithole to the ground, and re-build it properly. It is the only way you end up with a sound structure to live in.

If you see my previous posts you know that it's an emotional response. Stop thinking that if we don't have insurance people will be screwed over and start thinking other ways to solve the issue. We shouldn't be cornered between national/social healthcare and forced insurance. we can either go for healthcare vouchers, independent health accounts like the Roth IRA where everyone is free to have it by choice but it won't kill if they don't have it or even though I am a small government person I wouldn't mind a small tax hike to establish a committee that watchs where the money goes and insures that people are getting the proper amount. The choices should be boundless not limited.
If Otto von Bismarck was able to create a welfare state and took ideas away from the socialist we should be able to innovate and find something better and unique.

[bladeXcrasher]

I have it via my company not really sure what i pay as i keep the bare min to not pay a fine, if anything major comes i'll resort to the VA. I don't support a universal type system unless you first give back to the country in some way, not military service as i know its not for everyone.

You are aware that your VA benefits cover the minimum requirement right? That's why they send you a letter each year stating that.

[cuafpr]

You are aware that your VA benefits cover the minimum requirement right? That's why they send you a letter each year stating that.

yes, and i keep the min at work cause its cheap, and care is faster / better than VA care for minor things

[Cruor]

For the USA?

Burn the entire thing to the ground. ALL OF IT. Every single thing that is part of the current Health Care establishment.

Then re-build it for government backed single payer.

It's literally the only way you will ever fix the system.

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I will take you up on that offer, just as long as you don't get to touch anything the evil socialist healthcare program provides.

Just be sure to let me know where you or your family are when you get into your first major medical incident, and end up bankrupt and destitute because your medical bills came out to significantly more then you, or your entire family for several generations could possibly afford, so that I can be sure to drop by and point and laugh.

Agreed. Anything that is so expensive that it would bankrupt me would be a non recoverable death sentence anyway and a waste of money.

[Powerogue]

The root of it is in some fairly standard questions and discussion:
1) How are other countries handling health care?
2) What are the benefits and consequences they've experienced?
3) How can we learn from their example to create a health care system that incorporates as many of the benefits with as few of the consequences as possible?

The problem we seem to have is that the people making the decision aren't interested in making the best health care, they're interested in making something that sticks it to what the other guys are trying to do, leaving us all fighting instead of cooperating on something that should be the best for everyone.

[Gestopft]

3) How can we learn from their example to create a health care system that incorporates as many of the benefits with as few of the consequences as possible?

To be fair, with any policy there are going to be benefits and drawbacks. If we notice that the drawbacks are fairly similar across other countries, we should assume that they aren't going to be easy to avoid.

Also, I'm sure some would give the "We're AMERICA and we have to do things differently because...reasons"

The problem we seem to have is that the people making the decision aren't interested in making the best health care, they're interested in making something that sticks it to what the other guys are trying to do, leaving us all fighting instead of cooperating on something that should be the best for everyone.

Not only that, but solutions that make healthcare affordable and accessible for everybody are solutions that the healthcare lobby is not necessarily going to support- their goals are often at odds for what is best for the most people, and the outsize influence of lobbies and special interest groups plays its own role in why we can't fix healthcare. (Incidentally, this was one of the most remarkable elements of the GoP's health plan: the people AND the special interests were all opposed to it.)

[Zecora]

Make it available to everyone. Health care should be a basic human right.

It is actually.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Article 25.


(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control

Source

[Varitok]

Follow what the rest of the west has been doing for decades.

[Direpenguin]

Follow what the rest of the west has been doing for decades.

Coming to the US for important medical care when their socialized services fail them miserably?