Why Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Isn’t Working

[Deleted]

Most people are more then happy with the 3-5% cut in their pay for not having to see homeless people in the street or have beggers on the main street. Adding to that, a base income helps people jump into the system since they don't have to worry about basic needs We proberly have a good share of well educated people, because the system caught them when they fell and did not allow them to get stuck at the bottem.

The thing about UBI is that it's universal. A 5% cut won't amount to anything useful. Looking at 60k a year average income a 5% will only amount to 3k a year. The actual number you're looking at is more like 20% cut across the board, regardless of income so you can get 12k a year. Next there's the issue of how that money actually makes it through and managing it all which is going to increase the cost further. Looking at the US you're effectively going to need to convince 2/5 to give at least 0.2 * income - UBI which isn't extremely likely. Assuming that the price of items drops at the same rate as automation takes over that 20% can stay constant. If for whatever reason that doesn't happen that 20% will keep increasing to account for that difference.

[Elba]

Because a burger flipper is an actual job description and pencil pusher is a euphemism for paper work, which requires more qualifications than burger flipping.

So? Paper work won't ensure immortality either, so what's the difference?

[kamuimac]

As long as a basic income isn't enough to live on but just enough to support you when working a part-time job for example, I can get on board with it.
Humans will need some incentive to still work, or they will not get off the couch watching Netflix all day.

I still don't think it will work though for one big reason: mass immigration.

that is actually very good point - before introducing that people would have to first created united global economy state with 1 currency and without difference between countries in what their salary is - without that they would have to put people with machineguns on borders because people would literaly kill themselves to move to such country , live and do nothing

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So? Paper work won't ensure immortality either, so what's the difference?

the difference is for latter you need to at least know grammar - burger flipper dont

no matter how much you would like to belive people are not equals - burger flipper is in fact worht much much less then M.D. or architect- and trying to deny it is showing nothing but personal stupidity and lack of basic understanding - both are qualities which would oh gosh point such person towards burger flipper type of job which pays shit.

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As for why would people work, I just don't buy that. The people who work hard and succeed do it because they are ambitious, because their environment shaped them to seek excellence, because they have a strong internal locus of control. Those people would not stop at the basic income level, even if it was not a hovel and baked beans but a 25-35sq m. apartment and healthy food.

no the people who work and succed are simply much more greedy - greed is driving most people - people desire to be better then other have better things then other thats how society works - without that most would gladly sit on couch and play games on PC whole day

[Elba]

the difference is for latter you need to at least know grammar - burger flipper dont

no matter how much you would like to belive people are not equals - burger flipper is in fact worht much much less then M.D. or architect- and trying to deny it is showing nothing but personal stupidity and lack of basic understanding - both are qualities which would oh gosh point such person towards burger flipper type of job which pays shit.

Placing a human beings worth on their job or how much money they make seems pretty despicable. Like, late stage capitalist nonsense.

A burger flipper has less right to exist than an architect?

[Elim Garak]

Placing a human beings worth on their job or how much money they make seems pretty despicable. Like, late stage capitalist nonsense.

A burger flipper has less right to exist than an architect?

A burger flipper has as much right to exist as architect, because architect needs those burgers flipped, and burger flipper needs the burger flippery designed by an architect.

But burger flipping job's worth is LESS than architect's, because in one building many burger flippers can work at the same time, but it only takes one architect to design it. The builder's job worth is also greater than burger flipper's but LESS than architect's, because without an architect all they can build (that will stand the test of times) is a shed.

[kamuimac]

Placing a human beings worth on their job or how much money they make seems pretty despicable. Like, late stage capitalist nonsense.

A burger flipper has less right to exist than an architect?

no its not despicable its how world works - you want to rebel go for it but at the end of day you will achieven nothing .

anything has its value : health, education , intelect etc etc , trying to deny it is proving stupidity

he has whole right to exist - he just dont deserve more then minimum wage - if he wants more he is free to start learning to become architect

[Deleted]

A burger flipper has as much right to exist as architect, because architect needs those burgers flipped, and burger flipper needs the burger flippery designed by an architect.

But burger flipping job's worth is LESS than architect's, because in one building many burger flippers can work at the same time, but it only takes one architect to design it. The builder's job worth is also greater than burger flipper's but LESS than architect's, because without an architect all they can build (that will stand the test of times) is a shed.

Finally a comprehensive post about burger flippers.

I feel i dont need any further informations on that topic.

OT:
I hope Finlands experiment is working, and we get basic income everywhere in europe. It's the right step into the right direction.

[kamuimac]

There are, as it is, better solutions.

Basic Income is a right of citizenship. Refugees might receive a different type of welfare, not basic income. Immigrants would receive neither.
Basic Income should imo be controlled capital. That is, you get a debit card, it gets charged with the relevant amount but you can NOT withdraw cash from it. This restrains basic income from being used for criminal purchases to a significant degree. It also makes it harder for an illegal immigrant to somehow gain access to that income.

but then you are introducing new type of disrimination - not based on job but based on citizenship - arent all people supposed to be equal in your model ?

how is it any different then what we have now ?

you are just shifting the discrimination from social status towards geographic placement.

[zenkai]

Basic income could never work unless you get all socialist and control pricing as well. Supply and Demand folks

I suspect most people who think basic income is a good idea are people who want to be taken care of and shy away from personal responsibility.

[Deleted]

Basic income could never work unless you get all socialist and control pricing as well. Supply and Demand folks

I suspect most people who think basic income is a good idea are people who want to be taken care of and shy away from personal responsibility.

If the banks, billionaire tax dodgers, property owners and other super-rich parasites pay their fucking way and stop taking state handouts then we can talk about people on low incomes doing the same.

Until that time it is just payback for the money that was stolen from them.

[kamuimac]

If the banks, billionaire tax dodgers, property owners and other super-rich parasites pay their fucking way and stop taking state handouts then we can talk about people on low incomes doing the same.

Until that time it is just payback for the money that was stolen from them.

lol - stolen ? nobody is forcing you to use bank , take credits etc

typical for people with 0 econimical knowledge but what else to expect from burger flippers

arguments like this are proof why poor people should be stripped of voting rights - they are simply incapable of making important decisions.

[matt4pack]

lol - stolen ? nobody is forcing you to use bank , take credits etc

typical for people with 0 econimical knowledge but what else to expect from burger flippers

arguments like this are proof why poor people should be stripped of voting rights - they are simply incapable of making important decisions.

If anyone should be stripped of voting rights it needs to be people who don't know proper grammar.

[Deleted]

yes everyone who is in a job they hate earning terrible wages for 40+ hour work week would love basic income.

unfortunately some people actually bothered to make an effort to better themselves rather than sit around miserable and whine that life is not fair.

basic income is a terrible idea if you have any motivation or self esteem.

[Deleted]

yes everyone who is in a job they hate earning terrible wages for 40+ hour work week would love basic income.

unfortunately some people actually bothered to make an effort to better themselves rather than sit around miserable and whine that life is not fair.

basic income is a terrible idea if you have any motivation or self esteem.

You do realize those elitist assholes you're talking about, who "bettered themselves", would also get the basic income, right?

[Spectral]

Basic income could never work unless you get all socialist and control pricing as well. Supply and Demand folks

I suspect most people who think basic income is a good idea are people who want to be taken care of and shy away from personal responsibility.

Yeah, it's a terrible snip of irony. With the exception of a few people off the beaten path (Charles Murray comes to mind), most of the people advocating UBI just seem generally enthusiastic about any policy that increases redistribution rather than preferring UBI or negative income tax as a means to increase freedom. I'm generally positive about UBI policies as a theoretical construct, but in the real world, I'm very leery of how many of the advocates seem to just really hate capitalism and want to see any step that increases taxation and government spending.

If the banks, billionaire tax dodgers, property owners and other super-rich parasites pay their fucking way and stop taking state handouts then we can talk about people on low incomes doing the same.

Until that time it is just payback for the money that was stolen from them.

Case in point.

[Deleted]

lol - stolen ? Nobody is forcing you to use bank , take credits etc

typical for people with 0 econimical knowledge but what else to expect from burger flippers

arguments like this are proof why poor people should be stripped of voting rights - they are simply incapable of making important decisions.

great post!

[Spectral]

You do realize those elitist assholes you're talking about, who "bettered themselves", would also get the basic income, right?

Kinda. In most UBI proposals, the primary reason why you'd still send everyone a check is to make compliance and means-testing simple - there isn't any. The goal would still be substantially redistributive and the UBI would function similarly to a tax refund rather than just being an everyone gets more goodies button. While exact policy proposals vary, I've typically seen tax policy changes intending to make the break even point where the tax increase to pay for UBI would be equal to UBI itself being somewhere between ~$50K-$100K, depending who's coming up with the proposal.

This is really the strength of such a policy - executed properly, it mitigates poverty, improves working class living standards, doesn't impact the middle class, and raises taxes on the wealthiest group and does so without requiring a substantial increase in bureaucratic infrastructure.

[Deleted]

Case in point.

Ah, so opposing trillion-dollar bailouts, tax-dodging, governement kleptocracy = hating capitalism.

[Spectral]

Ah, so opposing trillion-dollar bailouts, tax-dodging, governement kleptocracy = hating capitalism.

Believing that the poor are having money "stolen" from them is literally just old Marxist rhetoric. There's barely even a shred of truth to it. Your post reflects animus for wealthy Americans outside of any government-specific policies:

If the banks, billionaire tax dodgers, property owners and other super-rich parasites

If you want to walk it back to refer to just the narrower groups of people that use government force to extract wealth, have at it.

[Logwyn]

yes everyone who is in a job they hate earning terrible wages for 40+ hour work week would love basic income.

unfortunately some people actually bothered to make an effort to better themselves rather than sit around miserable and whine that life is not fair.

basic income is a terrible idea if you have any motivation or self esteem.

The trouble is people post like what you do and don't realize the entire scope of basic income. You get what ever is decided and its for everyone! Bill Gates gets it and the guy that sits on his front porch all day gets it as well.

The other part they miss is all the social programs like food stamps, housing subsidies, etc go away. Why? Its suppose to be cheaper to just give everyone basic income.


Also part of the issue with the motivation and self esteem is that I know a number of people that would go out and "better themselves" but can't. Why? They have to work something 40 hours a week just to make ends meet or to get by. Some even two jobs or whatever. They don't have the time to do it now. Maybe with basic income they would?

Who knows. I guess that is the debate.