There is no longer a desire to make Raid Finder a tourist mode.

[Khallid]

Do you think steamrollimg easy content makes a better player then? Most of why LFR players suck is because they have virtually no reason to care about the mechanics. The laziness will disperse if they are forced to adapt to harder content and actually learn the mechanics to get the purples.

No, you think a video game game can force someone to care. It cannot. You need to care on your own accord in order to learn and improve your gameplay, not the other way around.

The LFR playerbase is a lot more casual than the reasonably good players that play a few hours a week and still get mythic 10+ done once a week or kill some heroic bosses every now and then. LFR people want to be able to start a raid at whatever time is most convenient or when they just feel like it, and avoid all the group-matching stress of pugs or scheduling rigor that guilds do, so LFR gives them a very smooth "raiding" experience. You are not going to change their mindset or preferences by making it harder. And I imagine that they won't learn much if they just die and stay dead most of the fight.

[Jtbrig7390]

Queueable and challenging content are mutually exclusive. LFR only works because it can be reliably completed by people in the 30th percentile.

And his example of FFXIV proves that they are not mutually exclusive. You can have challenging queable content.

[Khallid]

Why can't LFR be the same way? But honestly, why can't normal just be queueable?

Queueable Normal groups would wipe like 95% of the time, especially on group-wiping mechanics like Armaggedon on Kil'Jaeden.

[Katchii]

Queueable and challenging content are mutually exclusive. LFR only works because it can be reliably completed by people in the 30th percentile.

They are not mutually exclusive, WoW makes them that way. It doesn't have to be that way.

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Queueable Normal groups would wipe like 95% of the time, especially on group-wiping mechanics like Armaggedon on Kil'Jaeden.

My experience in a game like FFXIV where they have mechanics like that does not line up with what you're saying. There are certainly more wipes, but the clear rate is more than 5%.

[Toogoodman]

I don't mind if they make the bosses in LFR harder as long as they reduce boss hp too (I only do LFR now). LFR boss health in Legion feels like it's been way too high all expansion and with no mechanics to worry about it's like hitting a dummy for 6-7 minutes. It's just tedious. I think faster, but more dangerous fights would be more exciting. I know Tuesday raider LFR groups would probably kill them in 2 minutes like that, but they're not going to wipe anyway, so who cares.

The boss health feels so high because 70% of the "raid" afks. You usually have 3 people doing close to 1M dps and the other 12+ dps doing 200k. Doing 200k dps in ilvl 900+ gear is just sad.

[Khallid]

They are not mutually exclusive, WoW makes them that way. It doesn't have to be that way.

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My experience in a game like FFXIV where they have mechanics like that does not line up with what you're saying. There are certainly more wipes, but the clear rate is more than 5%.

There are a lot of differences with FFXIV, which you could argue might be in fact better for casual play than WoW. A very big difference in terms of rotation is that global cooldowns in FFXIV are very long, so you end up having more "free time" when you can't click buttons, which slows down the pace and probably helps a lot of people to pay attention to other stuff.

Are there any pre-requirements to queue in FFXIV? I feel like one of the issues in WoW right now with LFR is that the queuing pre-requirement (just some low-ish item level) doesn't really match with any of the requirements related to raid content, which needs awareness to boss abilities and rotation skills. I always thought that the proving grounds medals worked better as a prerequisite for stuff.

I also don't know if FFXIV has a better way to show mechanics unfold. WoW cast bars are very easy to miss, and most players are now accustomed to using addons like DBM to add raid warnings. I honestly think that a lot of LFR raiders would improve a lot if they simply used DBM, but I can't force them to do it.

A blank comparison between WoW and FFXIV doesn't sound as useful as you make it sound. There's a lot of important details to evaluate.

[Toogoodman]

Honestly, get rid of LFR, replace it with a "group formation" button, which is really just you signing up to a normal raid group. People will get kicked for afking by the group leaders, and if you suck, you're gone. Raiding at its core was never meant to be a "tourist mode", raiding from the onset of vanilla was meant to be the end-all be-all of end game. It was meant for the best players to progress to the final boss of the expansion, the current state of a 4 difficulty system is just awful now.

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There are a lot of differences with FFXIV, which you could argue might be in fact better for casual play than WoW. A very big difference in terms of rotation is that global cooldowns in FFXIV are very long, so you end up having more "free time" when you can't click buttons, which slows down the pace and probably helps a lot of people to pay attention to other stuff.

Are there any pre-requirements to queue in FFXIV? I feel like one of the issues in WoW right now with LFR is that the queuing pre-requirement (just some low-ish item level) doesn't really match with any of the requirements related to raid content, which needs awareness to boss abilities and rotation skills. I always thought that the proving grounds medals worked better as a prerequisite for stuff.

I also don't know if FFXIV has a better way to show mechanics unfold. WoW cast bars are very easy to miss, and most players are now accustomed to using addons like DBM to add raid warnings. I honestly think that a lot of LFR raiders would improve a lot if they simply used DBM, but I can't force them to do it.

A blank comparison between WoW and FFXIV doesn't sound as useful as you make it sound. There's a lot of important details to evaluate.

This is why the proving grounds system in WoD was so smart. Make people do something that shows they're competent enough to play in a group environment, with basic levels of awareness and dps. Catering to potatos is the worst thing any game can do, why cater to the cyclical subscriptions when they can cater to people who play nearly everyday.

[Jtbrig7390]

A blank comparison between WoW and FFXIV doesn't sound as useful as you make it sound. There's a lot of important details to evaluate.

You openly admit you don't know anything about FFXIV and yet say there is a lot of important details to evaluate.

The only requirement to get into FFXIV's queable raids is to unlock them via a quest chain (not all the time) and a ilvl requirement. You then assume that a majority of people in LFR don't use DBM (or addon's alike).

There is a lot of assuming in your post, As someone who has played both FFXIV and WoW.

Queable content and challenging content isn't mutually exclusive. The community and blizzard needs to stop acting like 95% of the community is a bunch of brain dead idiots.

Hell a vast amount of time the afker's/trolls in LFR are NM+ raiders who don't want to be there.

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Catering to potatos is the worst thing any game can do, why cater to the cyclical subscriptions when they can cater to people who play nearly everyday.

This line of thinking makes zero sense. You act like casuals can't play nearly everyday.

Blizzard caters to the majority because the majority bring them the most profits. Your mythic raider group is a small minority and they always will be.

[Khallid]

The boss health feels so high because 70% of the "raid" afks. You usually have 3 people doing close to 1M dps and the other 12+ dps doing 200k. Doing 200k dps in ilvl 900+ gear is just sad.

Sad is an understatement. I was doing over 300k dps back in Emerald Nightmare, with 860-ish item level and less than 20 artifact levels, and my group wasn't even large enough to do mythic at the time so my gear wasn't particularly good or anything. Right now artifact weapons have become massively more powerful so it's hard to understand how anyone does such low dps.

[Sunlighthell]

ToS lfr is a great fail for example. Desolate host without desolate host. Avatar that need like 20-30% hp nerf for players of ilvl 865 (lfr requirement) to be able to kill it without several 925+ ilvls in party, etc.

[Toogoodman]

You openly admit you don't know anything about FFXIV and yet say there is a lot of important details to evaluate.

The only requirement to get into FFXIV's queable raids is to unlock them via a quest chain (not all the time) and a ilvl requirement. You then assume that a majority of people in LFR don't use DBM (or addon's alike).

There is a lot of assuming in your post, As someone who has played both FFXIV and WoW.

Queable content and challenging content isn't mutually exclusive. The community and blizzard needs to stop acting like 95% of the community is a bunch of brain dead idiots.

Hell a vast amount of time the afker's/trolls in LFR are NM+ raiders who don't want to be there.

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This line of thinking makes zero sense. You act like casuals can't play nearly everyday.

Blizzard caters to the majority because the majority bring them the most profits. Your mythic raider group is a small minority and they always will be.

I didnt say casuals, i said cyclical subscribers. I know a ton of casuals who play everyday, and they tend to do normal/heroic/ or don't raid at all. Cyclical subscribers are people who play for a month, unsubscribe and come back when the new patch drops, and then unsub after a month. These people are usually the ones who cry about gating as well because they want to unsub after a month, which is why LFR is released over several months now, to keep them subbed.

[Raelbo]

And his example of FFXIV proves that they are not mutually exclusive. You can have challenging queable content.

The disastrous experiment that was "hard" heroics in Cataclysm proves that you can't.

It may work in FFXIV. But that doesn't mean it will work in WoW. Apples and oranges.

[Toogoodman]

Sad is an understatement. I was doing over 300k dps back in Emerald Nightmare, with 860-ish item level and less than 20 artifact levels, and my group wasn't even large enough to do mythic at the time so my gear wasn't particularly good or anything. Right now artifact weapons have become massively more powerful so it's hard to understand how anyone does such low dps.

Its because things like actively engaging world mobs, proving grounds, and player screening isn't a thing. Back when you had to kick mobs, move from frontal cones, sap and CC mobs, ranged pull, do proving grounds to even queue, etc... Those things were GOOD, no one who is doing group content wants someone who is literally incapable of pressing two different buttons in their group, but blizz forces it.

[Khallid]

You openly admit you don't know anything about FFXIV and yet say there is a lot of important details to evaluate.

The only requirement to get into FFXIV's queable raids is to unlock them via a quest chain (not all the time) and a ilvl requirement. You then assume that a majority of people in LFR don't use DBM (or addon's alike).

There is a lot of assuming in your post, As someone who has played both FFXIV and WoW.

Queable content and challenging content isn't mutually exclusive. The community and blizzard needs to stop acting like 95% of the community is a bunch of brain dead idiots.

Hell a vast amount of time the afker's/trolls in LFR are NM+ raiders who don't want to be there.

I played FFXIV for a bit, and did some queuable dungeons, but not raids. I didn't do endgame content so I can't comment on that. Low level dungeon bosses are obviously not worth comparing to.

Of course I assume that LFR raiders don't use DBM. Because I find it harder to believe that they do use DBM and still fail so many mechanics.

So you think that claiming that afkers/trolls are NM+ raiders is not an assumption? If you inspect the people in LFR groups you will notice that raiders wearing heroic/mythic tier set are always the highest dps, who don't die to mechanics and carry the group. The afk or low dps are mostly people with crap gear they wear only to boost their item level so they can queue, and often wrong talent choices and bad legendaries. Of course it's not always the case, but as far as I've seen the more hardcore a player is the less likely he is to be afk, because they want to get over with quickly, and they don't trust the weaker players.

[azurrei]

I'm all for this...because personally I would rather they get rid of LFR and replace with a queueable version of Normal (with all the limitations of queue content like fixed raid size and personal loot only.) HOWEVER, IF they make LFR "harder" so that is is very close to Normal (Normal is about as difficult as MoP LFR minus the stacking fail buff) - the ilvl of the gear needs to be just below normal...like 5-7 ilvls below not 15.

[Raelbo]

They are not mutually exclusive, WoW makes them that way. It doesn't have to be that way.

I don't necessarily disagree with this statement. But maybe you need to assess why it is this way and what it would take to make it not this way. And accept that maybe the changes necessary to WoW to make it different would not be preferable to the game as a whole.

I still my maintain my assertion that for WoW and it's existing playerbase, culture etc, the two are mutually exclusive. If you had a playerbase with a more homogenous skill level then maybe things would be different, but I don't think that trying to achieve a homogenous skill level in the game is a good idea because a big part of what makes WoW appealing to a lot of players is the concept of "easy to play, hard to master". Anyone can play this game, not everyone though can (or should) be capable of defeating the hardest content. LFR being the way it is, is closely coupled to this core concept.

[Jtbrig7390]

yes because FFXIV is a legit competitor against WoW and is renowned for it's thriving PVE scene

You make a smart comment and ignore the fact that its both a big competitor to Wow and is in fact known for its thriving PVE scene. FFXIV is the 2nd biggest sub MMO in the world.

It is a direct competitor to WoW.

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The disastrous experiment that was "hard" heroics in Cataclysm proves that you can't.

It may work in FFXIV. But that doesn't mean it will work in WoW. Apples and oranges.

It isn't apples to oranges and it worked just fine in Cata. Dungeons was still getting cleared, The issue is blizzard listened to the vocal minority on the forums.

There is no reason WoW can't have queable challenging content.

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So you think that claiming that afkers/trolls are NM+ raiders is not an assumption?

Nope because u can inspect these player's and see what achievement's they have. Yes there is some LFR only player's who do it as well but the vast majority is NM+ group or pvpers.

Feel free to inspect people and take a look. Hell there is Mythic raiders on this forum who do it and admit to it.

[Leadsop]

Why do elitists need to sit and complain about LFR? What difference does it make to Heroic or Mythic raiders if there's a difficulty others are able to achieve?

I am not criticizing, I'm honestly asking. I do not understand what the need is to complain about this. I'm in a Heroic guild, so I'm not whining.

[Khallid]

I didnt say casuals, i said cyclical subscribers. I know a ton of casuals who play everyday, and they tend to do normal/heroic/ or don't raid at all. Cyclical subscribers are people who play for a month, unsubscribe and come back when the new patch drops, and then unsub after a month. These people are usually the ones who cry about gating as well because they want to unsub after a month, which is why LFR is released over several months now, to keep them subbed.

Hmmmm, you made me realize that we're not defining properly any of the player groups we're talking about, since everyone gets mixed in an LFR queue. So which group is the one that wants LFR to be harder? I'm a guild raider, so from my perspective the queue system makes it difficult for the group to get organized. There are no raid leaders in an LFR group, so no one can give instructions and expect people to follow, which ends in a mess very often, so that's why I say that group-wiping mechanics would suck in LFR. I might be mixing so-called LFR raiders with a bunch of casual pug raiders that are simply weak.

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Why do elitists need to sit and complain about LFR? What difference does it make to Heroic or Mythic raiders if there's a difficulty others are able to achieve?

I am not criticizing, I'm honestly asking. I do not understand what the need is to complain about this. I'm in a Heroic guild, so I'm not whining.

Pople love complaining about stuff, and we all have different opinions on this so it becomes a shitshow very quickly. I do LFR every now and then, because I consider it "solo content", but I wouldn't do it if it turns into a wipefest. I simply don't trust the rest of the clearly bad players to get good.

[Jastall]

Yeah so KJ also got mechanics removed. No beams, no Singularities, no big Armageddons. But you will probably wipe if you fail 2-3 soaks in succession, the damage still ramps up very fast.

I'm fine with this, it was easy when I did it but half the raid was in Heroic gear.