WoW is becoming more Pay To Win than ever with the next patch.

[ls-]

ITT, people who've never played P2W games are saying that WoW is P2W.

[Devilyaki]

Good, maybe I'll have the ilvl to beat kruul finally :/

[Zigrifid]

There is at least 2 forum posts like that per expansion , legion only had this one we now await the 2nd one

[mickybrighteyes]

wait... pay to win meant that you're paying real money for some sort of advantage... you know.. the kind that allows you to 'win' against people that didn't have that advantage.

Cosmetic things like a mount/pet are not pay to win as you can't use them to actually 'win' anything. You could argue the pets if they were better than regular pets, but from my understanding, most of the in-game shop pets aren't all that much better than any others.

Now, as for Obliterum, that's in game gold or in game farmed... thus having that affecting crafted goods is no different from any other era of crafted boe equipment. Or hell, found boe equipment. Now if you mean it's pay to win because people are selling wow tokens and selling THOSE for gold to get better things in game... That's not the new oblit cap making things pay to win

[Otimus]

I don't get the complaint. Are you saying you want very good crafted gear to not exist?

That's stupid. If it were up to me, crafted gear would at least give you half of the best gear in the game, so professions actually would get to really matter. That, and I'd actually make professions be fun, and not boring and rote, but whatever.


Like, there's no real alternative to this line of thinking, unless you want them to get rid of tokens, too, in which case, for the love of god, no. I like paying for my gametime in gold. I'd of quit the game if not for that, TBH.

[Goundin]

Well probably I am not like the average casual. I am casual, but I like to get stronger. However if others can just get better gear with spending money I will have less and less incentive to play for better gear and eventually quit.

If you feel the game has become "pay to win", a term you are not understanding here, because wow is not pay to win, then maybe you would be better off playing a different game.

[Twdft]

pay-to-win game is a different thing: it's game where you can ONLY pay real money to get stuff you simply can't have otherwise

So all the little pay to win android games were you either have to wait for energy or whatever to play again or pay money to get energy are in your eyes NOT p2w? Because you can get everything a paying customer could get, just wait for your energy to replenish?

Some strange definitions for p2w going on in this thread.

The only thing that's different between WoW and a "real" p2w game is that in WoW we can only buy an advantage if another player got it through normal play first and sells it to us. To sell raid runs one has to beat the raid beforehand, to sell craftables one has to get the profession and farm some shit first.

[mrsohta]

those items won't give you as good dps as raid gear would plus you still need skill to beat the raid, i mean you aren't getting the achiev for money so it's technically not p2w

[Deleted]

New nethershard style rewards will be base 910 ilvl and I am pretty sure WQ gear will get an upgrade too. The gain from getting crafted gear upgraded will not worth the gold.

[tratra]

OP... I don't know if you have realised that but wow was always a P2W game as every game out there.

Sell runs exist since vanilla. Today its even easier to get sell runs, with only 1kk gold you can easily buy TOS Mythic bosses, and for the right price you can even buy KJ Mythic kill.

I mean you can literally buy a person playing your char until your char becomes the strongest player out there... So ye whatever as long as blizzard doesn't endorse it and put it on their website as in buy items for that much cash then am ok with it, cause naturally anything is p2w even life itself.

[Unholyground]

WoW is going to be buy to play like Guild Wars 2 in the not so distant future, this is just a natural progression they have been moving towards.

[mickybrighteyes]

I mean you can literally buy a person playing your char until your char becomes the strongest player out there... So ye whatever as long as blizzard doesn't endorse it and put it on their website as in buy items for that much cash then am ok with it, cause naturally anything is p2w even life itself.

breaks TOS and can get you banned.

Not exactly a good comparison.

[dlhak]

Why should we blame blizzard for people stupidity ?

[Deleted]

Poor you. Half an hour for a mythic + 15 is too much.

Yes, pay to win is about the best gear. That is how you "win". These craftables are just a catch up mechanism. If you think anyone is gonna win something with that, you are sorely mistaken. They may win the ability to pug a normal mode raid at best.

See i don't get you. In one side it's "Oh no! It's P2W". On the other it's "i don't have time for this". Make up your mind, because the gear is exactly for people like you that don't have time.

Still this "i don't have time" excuse is BS. Even pugs can clear normal ToS in under 2 hours. You are just making up excuses.

Didnt you say "Mythic Raiding"?

I was sure you said that. Thats what nobody have time for xD

[MasterHamster]

I'm not very concerned about what can be bought by buying/selling tokens for gold, not unless Blizzard starts selling things that:

Actually *creates* an item that influences your power, such as a +10 ilvl Artifact token or a ilvl capped raid trinket. Merely getting gold someone else gathered by purchasing your token for doesn't really *create* something in a vacuum.

or

Permanent boosts such as increased Exp, increased Rep gains, or increased Drop chance for rare/epic/legendary items.

If someone wants to funnel a few million gold to themselves (remember, the gold isn't created in the purchase) by selling a bunch of tokens then wasting it all crafting some 935 gear thatll be irrelevant in a few patches, that's not very troublesome.



The arguments about the rich player just buying themselves gold and craft a full set of maxed crafted gear is as much of a relevant argument as the LFR-only raider that is apparently decked in TF 940. It simply doesn't happen in any meaningful amount.

[thewallofsleep]

By this logic, people who bought from gold sellers before tokens existed were also able to p2w. The world kept turning.

[Radaney]

You can literally just buy a boost for cheaper than 3.3million gold to be cleared through mythic ToS by Method.

[pseudoJ]

It means, people will just need to buy wow tokens, upgrade their characters and clear the mythic raid

Coz that's how it works... I strongly suggest you join a mythic NH pug.... hell join a mythic EN pug . Please do tell us after how smoothly it went (e.g. illignoth).


Yes gear helps... not gear is not enough to clear mythic raids

[Arnoux]

You are an idiot, check some real pay to win mmo rpg, and check it with WoW. Maybe then you will able to see the difference. You are telling if I open my wallet I will have advantage over others. In what way? What I get that I become so op? Most guilds already with 935+ i lvl gears.

Your understanding about p2w is bullshit

Only less than 1% of playerbase have 935+ item level epics. If you spend money you may not be better than than top 0.1%, but be better than the bottom 99%.
I have tried other games as well and pay to win is not 0 or 1. That is why the name of this tread is "Wow is becoming more Pay to Win than ever" I did not say WoW was 0, now it is 1 Pay to Win. Pay to Win is a scale. For WoW the balance was somewhat okay, but it is slowly getting outbalanced.

- - - Updated - - -

OP... I don't know if you have realised that but wow was always a P2W game as every game out there.

Sell runs exist since vanilla. Today its even easier to get sell runs, with only 1kk gold you can easily buy TOS Mythic bosses, and for the right price you can even buy KJ Mythic kill.

I mean you can literally buy a person playing your char until your char becomes the strongest player out there... So ye whatever as long as blizzard doesn't endorse it and put it on their website as in buy items for that much cash then am ok with it, cause naturally anything is p2w even life itself.

I now it was always pay to win, however in the beginning you could only buy boost with hard earned gold by playing. Blizzard banned a gold sellers, and they still ban people who sell runs for cash instead of gold. The difference is that now blizzard is the gold seller. In the past it was bannable activity, but suddenly Blizzard started doing it.

"naturally anything is p2w even life itself"
Life is pay to win, however I don't came to play games to get restricted by life situation. Diablo started as über pay to win, then they removed AH. Now you can't trade anything. You don't really get any significant advantage by buying boost, because you won't get better gear at 120 Greater Rift than at 60 Greater Rift.

- - - Updated - - -

By this logic, people who bought from gold sellers before tokens existed were also able to p2w. The world kept turning.

That is pay to win, however Blizzard was fighting against this practice back then and banned several accounts. Now they are selling gold, exactly what they have been fighting against for years and years.

- - - Updated - - -

I am 931 equipped now on the 4th week of ToS. so I don't think the 935 will be any good with warforged titanforged system as I expect that most of my pieces will be 935 or more before next patch hits.

Don't forget that equipped avg item lvl is not the same as avg epic item level. Your two 970ilevel legendaries just boost your item level a lot.

- - - Updated - - -

You can literally just buy a boost for cheaper than 3.3million gold to be cleared through mythic ToS by Method.

That is also a problem. If you buy these runs with cash, you and Method gets banned. Suddenly if you give your cash to blizzard then buy these runs by gold, while Blizzard takes a huge margin, then it is suddenly 100% legit.

[Ishayu]

You're goddamn right, OP.

This is why earlier versions of WoW were so against gold trading for real life money. If you have gold trading, you can't have a gold economy for the best items in the game without getting pay-to-win, and pay-to-win is just not fair, which is why we pay a monthly subscription to avoid it.

Now, I have to say I VASTLY prefer having great, rare, and powerful craftables that can be bought with gold in the game, and as a direct consequence I have to be against the WoW token, so I am.