Google fires diversity critic

[Themius]

Women aren't as interested in Tech... that's true; however, saying that women are unsuitable is entirely different.

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You never hear about how there aren't enough male nurses even though that field is more one sided then IT. It's also well paid and has staffing shortages. Funny how that works.

Why don't we start trying to find out why more woman don't do into waste management arts while we're at it. I mean if we really want equality it should apply to every industry right?

Yes you do... I take it you've never looked much into the issue but even in nursing its good to point out that male nurses make more money than female nurses as they tend to go into different specialities that pay more which means you'll till end up with a shortage of male nurses in some nursing fields.

[spanishninja]

Women aren't as interested in Tech... that's true; however, saying that women are unsuitable is entirely different.

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Yes you do... I take it you've never looked much into the issue but even in nursing its good to point out that male nurses make more money than female nurses as they tend to go into different specialities that pay more which means you'll till end up with a shortage of male nurses in some nursing fields.

It sounds like from what you said that males tend to gravitate towards lucrative professions that grant them more STATUS and THINGS, huh?

I do agree with you that the author made a mistake focusing so much on aptitude rather than preference, which is in fact the bigger issue.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

The amount of people who makes the claim that the author said women are not suited/less suited for tech are literally making a statement that they haven't read the memo.

The memo asks google to stop forcing quotas and start working on a culture that actually value diversity without discrimination.

[Themius]

It sounds like from what you said that males tend to gravitate towards lucrative professions that grant them more STATUS and THINGS, huh?

I do agree with you that the author made a mistake focusing so much on aptitude rather than preference, which is in fact the bigger issue.

Yes, male nurses gravitate towards nursing specialities that are more lucrative. Leading to a gender pay gap that's mostly means nothing.

[BreakerOfWills]

The amount of people who makes the claim that the author said women are not suited/less suited for tech are literally making a statement that they haven't read the memo.

The memo asks google to stop forcing quotas and start working on a culture that actually value diversity without discrimination.

Why is forcing quotas bad inherently? Studies show that a diversity of perspectives is a net benefit for a company, especially one looking for creative solutions to problems.

"Go find the women interested in this shit, there arent as many of them so it might take longer/require more effort, and when it's down to an equally qualified white dude or whatever else hire the one we have less of"

[NoiseTank13]

I'm not reading through 56 pages of schlop.

What was this guy's end goal here? If he was smart enough to work at Google, he'd be smart enough to know that writing it in that way would invite a shitload of reactions, warranted or not.

Was he just wanting different qualifications in hiring?

[spanishninja]

Why is forcing quotas bad inherently? Studies show that a diversity of perspectives is a net benefit for a company, especially one looking for creative solutions to problems.

"Go find the women interested in this shit, there arent as many of them so it might take longer/require more effort, and when it's down to an equally qualified white dude or whatever else hire the one we have less of"

Do you really think diversity of perspective is what you will get in a corporate culture that eradicates unpopular views? If the women and racial minorities you hire are selected (either through the hiring process or through attrition) to share the same world views, they might as well all be white men.

So in response to your question, diversification of the workplace is of course not a bad thing, but superficial diversity is not as beneficial as you think, compared to true diversity, diversity of ideas.

[BreakerOfWills]

I would say that it is laughable to claim/suggest that socialisation in the sole reason that more men are programmers than women. It is more complex than this, and this was the point of the memo. The extent to which it is nature v nurture should be up for debate. He didn't suggest that it was wholly down to nature, nor does he suggest that biology gives men an advantage to being programmers, it had nothing to do with performance, but preference. I am a computing science teacher, and I can tell you, getting girls to be interested in programming is fucking hard. They are just as good at it as boys are. However getting them to take it as a career choice is bloody hard. I have only succeeded in a couple of occasions, and most of them, they had an inherent interest before hand, there have only been a few that were set on one path and I've manage to help them change their minds. I do not discriminate. I encourage everyone. However your average girl just isn't as into it as your average boy. At least not in terms of a career. I have had plenty of good female pupils who were good at programming, but just wanted different career paths. Typically the life sciences. I can't accept that this is purely down to socialisation, and that the patriarchy has brain washed them. And we do know that there are biological differences between males and females, not just physically, but in terms of how their brains work (on a general level). Obviously you get individual outliers. Nature clearly plays a role, and the point that the memo made was that this isn't being explored, and it isn't being explored for ideological reasons, because the people pushing the "its nurture what did it" narrative have a vested interest in this, to cede ground here would imply that women aren't completely the victims that they claim they are. And this is partly the reason why they get all inquisitional over anyone disputing their version of reality. He wasn't saying that women couldn't be good at programmers, or are disadvantaged at becoming programmers (anyone who has worked in the field knows this is bullshit, and hardly anyone is actually saying it, this is willful misrepresentation). He is saying that we can't simply ignore biology as a factor in why there are gender disparities. And that the reason some do, is for ideological purposes. Anyone who works in STEM education knows it isn't simply an issue of socialisation.

I think you have an inflated idea of your influence. I'd never argue parity, that men and women are equally as likely to go into tech but the way people are ready to downplay the importance of socialization when they have influence on what, 2% of the target groups life? We gonna argue that one encouraging stem teacher beats decades of socialization? Parents/tv/movies/books/government/stereotypes and you think your one class is going to make the difference?

We know that socialization depressed the number of women in programming, we know that video game's are a dude thing not because of any natural inclination but a marketing decision after the bottom dropped out of the market(consoles became toys and toys in the 80s were either boy shit or girl shit and they chose boys)

It's a weird thing to look at the prevailing tidal wave of social pressure, put up one barrel of sand and when it gets washed away just throw up your hands and say "well i tried, it's definitely more genetic than social obviously"

We have no fuckin clue what's genetic, our society moved pretty far beyond that aside from pretty much shitting, fucking and killing - and if you study enough you'll realize we shit wrong too.

[Freighter]

Why is forcing quotas bad inherently? Studies show that a diversity of perspectives is a net benefit for a company, especially one looking for creative solutions to problems.

"Go find the women interested in this shit, there arent as many of them so it might take longer/require more effort, and when it's down to an equally qualified white dude or whatever else hire the one we have less of"

Racial/gender quotas have little to do with diversity of perspectives.

[Bighud44]

If you are unaware, a few days ago there was a controversy sweeping Twitter regarding a leaked internal memo written by a Google engineer who wrote a manifesto complaining about Google's efforts to increase diversity in its workforce.

The employee complained that conservatives were either ignored or ridiculed, that there is a liberal bias and that women are biologically unsuitable for certain technical roles. This created a shit storm with Google's vice president for diversity (seriously) condemning the memo telling employees that these views will not be tolerated and the author of the document would be tracked down and disciplined.

Right wing bloggers were outraged saying the author is entitled to view his opinions regardless of how controversial they are. The author was being held up as a hero of free speech and anti PC.

Of course Google tracked down the author and promptly fired him. So much for free speech and freedom of views. Diversity is not diversity when everyone has to sing from the same song sheet and individual thought is forbidden.

Story here:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...diversity-memo

Full story backdrop here:
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/08/e...lly-at-google/

Adding direct link to manifesto:
http://diversitymemo.com/
(thanks Archmage BloodElf4Life)

Kinda funny to me that soooo many SJW's have been on here slamming this guy, calling for violence against him, being the internet bad asses they are and saying they would "Beat his ass" if they saw him, or just down right being bigots. If you actually read what he wrote and take it in the context of his memo, NOT A MANIFESTO, you would see he is actually FOR diversity and was just pointing out Google's lack of diversity when it comes to conservatives and people who think differently than a majority of their employees and board.

[BreakerOfWills]

Do you really think diversity of perspective is what you will get in a corporate culture that eradicates unpopular views? If the women and racial minorities you hire are selected (either through the hiring process or through attrition) to share the same world views, they might as well all be white men.

So in response to your question, diversification of the workplace is of course not a bad thing, but superficial diversity is not as beneficial as you think, compared to true diversity, diversity of ideas.

I'd have to know the unpopular views to judge them cuz it could be anything ranging from "I think we need a more structured workplace" to "I dont think there should be as many women here"

Isn't courting conservative viewpoints also "superficial diversity" ?

Also the idea is that you have a bunch of white men anyway, they're still the majority, but with hiring practices you avoid an overwhelming majority, let's say 60/40 instead of 90/10.

I mean the science has shown that hiring is a personal superficial process, IE people select people they think they'll get along with - human beings are simply not as logical and objective as they like to think they are, so the argument that hiring "the best person for the job" naturally results in a homogeneous group(as was the case for a few decades) is absurd.

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Racial/gender quotas have little to do with diversity of perspectives.

But somehow a room full of white dudes will be so much more diverse in perspective and approach?

[spanishninja]

I think you have an inflated idea of your influence. I'd never argue parity, that men and women are equally as likely to go into tech but the way people are ready to downplay the importance of socialization when they have influence on what, 2% of the target groups life? We gonna argue that one encouraging stem teacher beats decades of socialization? Parents/tv/movies/books/government/stereotypes and you think your one class is going to make the difference?

We know that socialization depressed the number of women in programming, we know that video game's are a dude thing not because of any natural inclination but a marketing decision after the bottom dropped out of the market(consoles became toys and toys in the 80s were either boy shit or girl shit and they chose boys)

It's a weird thing to look at the prevailing tidal wave of social pressure, put up one barrel of sand and when it gets washed away just throw up your hands and say "well i tried, it's definitely more genetic than social obviously"

We have no fuckin clue what's genetic, our society moved pretty far beyond that aside from pretty much shitting, fucking and killing - and if you study enough you'll realize we shit wrong too.

And how is diverstiy hiring supposed to fix the decades of impact from socialization? If females have historically been disinterested in certain scientific fields, suddenly hiring more women just for diversity's sake will likely only result in those employees doing a job capably, but also dispassionately. At least this computer science teacher is trying their best to help reverse the ingrained attitudes.

[BreakerOfWills]

And how is diverstiy hiring supposed to fix the decades of impact from socialization? If females have historically been disinterested in certain scientific fields, suddenly hiring more women just for diversity's sake will likely only result in those employees doing a job capably, but also dispassionately. At least this computer science teacher is trying their best to help reverse the ingrained attitudes.

But studies show that there are tons of dudes working in industries not because they're interested but because they view them as lucrative, so we'll now have a more even gender spread of people doing a job capably but also dispassionately.

[tehealadin]

I think you have an inflated idea of your influence. I'd never argue parity, that men and women are equally as likely to go into tech but the way people are ready to downplay the importance of socialization when they have influence on what, 2% of the target groups life? We gonna argue that one encouraging stem teacher beats decades of socialization? Parents/tv/movies/books/government/stereotypes and you think your one class is going to make the difference?

We know that socialization depressed the number of women in programming, we know that video game's are a dude thing not because of any natural inclination but a marketing decision after the bottom dropped out of the market(consoles became toys and toys in the 80s were either boy shit or girl shit and they chose boys)

It's a weird thing to look at the prevailing tidal wave of social pressure, put up one barrel of sand and when it gets washed away just throw up your hands and say "well i tried, it's definitely more genetic than social obviously"

We have no fuckin clue what's genetic, our society moved pretty far beyond that aside from pretty much shitting, fucking and killing - and if you study enough you'll realize we shit wrong too.

I put that part in bold, because it really highlights the point. If we have no fuckin clue what's genetic, why are you so quick to claim what isn't? I think we know why, but if you can try and be honest for a second, I think you might see my point.

At no point did I downplay the importance of socialisation. Even in the memo, it isn't stated as being a non factor. The point is, we don't know how much of it can be explained by x and how much by y. I never said it was more genetic than social. I claimed that I think nature has something to do with it. By claiming that it isn't 100% social doesn't mean I, or anyone else, is saying that it isn't a factor. It isn't a case of it has to be 100% or 0%. You (I suspect willfully) miss the point, it isn't black and white.

And on your personal attack one me, firstly, I have many female pupils whose parents are programmers/work in the computing industry (including mothers), who have said at parents evenings "I would like her to take this further", but the girls are like "nah, I am more interested in doing x". I never made out that if I personally cannot solve this problem, then it must be genetic. You are twisting what I said. My point was, and if there are anyone else who is actually involved with this stuff in day to day life (I don't mean bloggers, but actual educators/trainers), I would love for them to offer some input into this, is that, when spending time with girls, and trying to get them into programming, I feel that it is obvious that it isn't 100% social that they don't pursue it further, it is a more complex issue than is often made out.

I know I can't generalise my experiences to whole populations, but I have seen enough to make me question the dogma of "it is all socialisation". I don't deny that socialisation, especially in decades part, was a huge aspect. However, 13 years olds now, can we really claim that socialisation has the same impact now? I am not so sure. Again, I didn't say that this as an element has vanished- just that the severity of it, especially now, I don't know if it is as strong as it once was.

And this comes back to my post, and the memo, there is a discussion to be had. People like you coming in and willfully misrepresenting what people said (for what I suspect are ideological reasons, to draw the conclusions you made from my post implies that either your reading comprehension is weak (which I don't think is the case), or you are doing it on purpose because it doesn't align with your world view) aren't interesting in discussion, or exploring all possible explanations.

[Zecora]

Kinda funny to me that soooo many SJW's have been on here slamming this guy, calling for violence against him, being the internet bad asses they are and saying they would "Beat his ass" if they saw him, or just down right being bigots. If you actually read what he wrote and take it in the context of his memo, NOT A MANIFESTO, you would see he is actually FOR diversity and was just pointing out Google's lack of diversity when it comes to conservatives and people who think differently than a majority of their employees and board.

I'm not wading through 57 pages of this, but kindly point out where "SJW's" in this thread have called for violence against this guy, or said that "they would 'Beat his ass' if they saw him"

Also, I highly doubt you, or a lot of right-wingers in this thread would give a rat's arse if he was a left-winger, getting fired for pointing out or criticizing the lack of left-wingers in a company's employees and board. So don't cry quite so loudly about other people being bigots.

[spanishninja]

I'd have to know the unpopular views to judge them cuz it could be anything ranging from "I think we need a more structured workplace" to "I dont think there should be as many women here"

Isn't courting conservative viewpoints also "superficial diversity" ?

Also the idea is that you have a bunch of white men anyway, they're still the majority, but with hiring practices you avoid an overwhelming majority, let's say 60/40 instead of 90/10.

I mean the science has shown that hiring is a personal superficial process, IE people select people they think they'll get along with - human beings are simply not as logical and objective as they like to think they are, so the argument that hiring "the best person for the job" naturally results in a homogeneous group(as was the case for a few decades) is absurd.

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But somehow a room full of white dudes will be so much more diverse in perspective and approach?

If what you say about hiring practices is true (and I agree it is), doesn't that demonstrate that diversity hiring is a sham anyway? After all, a minority candidate joining the company would have most likely gotten the job because they were "agreeable" with the hiring manager. Prove to me how that doesn't result in homogeneity of viewpoints?

Also, Silicon Valley is not all white dudes, and hasn't been for a long time. What has the influx of Asians into the tech sector done in terms of diversification of ideas merely stemming from different background?

I am in the process baiting you into saying that Asian and whites are the same. Just do it, I want you to!

[Toogoodman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w-CBCAwfZE

This really killed me, listen to the anchors had to say about this.

My favorite part was "engineering was a female dominated occupation in the 40s until men pushed them out". Gee, I wonder what the reason for that could be

Also, wheres the gender representation in the nursing field? 92% of nurses are female? Man, this sexism is killing me. I work in finance, the field is completely male dominated, i never even see women besides in HR/Secretaries, thing about those jobs are that at my firm, they dont require college, while my job obviously does. The other thing is literally every single one of these women are mothers, who decided to not go to school, and have very well off husbands, so this is just a secondary income (a very good one at that).

Genders usually pick different careers, its just a fact, its not sexism, stop trying to force it.

[Freighter]

But somehow a room full of white dudes will be so much more diverse in perspective and approach?

Them being white dudes does not mean there is not a diversity of perspectives. Unless you think all white dudes are some kind of hivemind who think the same.

[Deleted]

A semi-reasonable response to this mess.

All I see in that article is me me me me me me ...

[Snorkles]

Is there no management structure at google or something? Did this guy not have a line manager or someone he could complain to?

Seems like he got himself fired for no real reason - Google aren't going to give a fuck and he's signaled to every future employer that he doesn't have the emotional intelligence to be a decent manager, putting a very hard limit on his career progression.