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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    Of course it depends on your current gear as well. Sephuz won't always be the best in all situations. However stats go up or down in value relative to the amount of the others.

    So it may be that losing 1.6k mastery and 5% pet damage isn't a big deal because the gain in crit and haste give you more dps. Haste is still a great stat for BM as it synergises with a lot of the abilities:

    Reduced cd on KC
    Reduced cd on dire beast
    pet attack speed
    autoshot speed
    focus regeneration
    Sure, but it's exactly all of those things that makes haste such a wonky stat to simulate. In reality, the chances that you manage to squeeze out another cobra shot due to higher focus regen, or an extra KC due to lower CD from .5% haste more is extremely small, but SimC sure as fuck is, on average, going to do that. Part of it gets combatted with the random duration simulations nowadays, but it's still a huge red cross to me to see haste beating Mastery when there's little logical reason for it to.
    I concede, for the Aspect build, there may be something to it, though; without KC resets from Killer Cobra, and with the Aspect perk not scaling with anything but Versatility and Agility, Mastery loses value, while Haste retains it (and conversatively; If you're running Killer Cobra, haste loses value during BW due to the constant resets of KC meaning the lower cooldown on it has little to no effect, and Dire Beast being worth less to cast inside of BW due to not stacking the set bonus than outside means the higher proc rate/lower CD is also objectively "worse" than having your abilities just do more damage).

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Sure, but it's exactly all of those things that makes haste such a wonky stat to simulate. In reality, the chances that you manage to squeeze out another cobra shot due to higher focus regen, or an extra KC due to lower CD from .5% haste more is extremely small, but SimC sure as fuck is, on average, going to do that. Part of it gets combatted with the random duration simulations nowadays, but it's still a huge red cross to me to see haste beating Mastery when there's little logical reason for it to.
    I concede, for the Aspect build, there may be something to it, though; without KC resets from Killer Cobra, and with the Aspect perk not scaling with anything but Versatility and Agility, Mastery loses value, while Haste retains it (and conversatively; If you're running Killer Cobra, haste loses value during BW due to the constant resets of KC meaning the lower cooldown on it has little to no effect, and Dire Beast being worth less to cast inside of BW due to not stacking the set bonus than outside means the higher proc rate/lower CD is also objectively "worse" than having your abilities just do more damage).
    I mean it's not that hard to calculate, you just divide the time given with the cooldown of the haste affected skill and see if you would get any extra casts.

    You would cast DB during BW if you had 2 stacks anyway just to not waste the BW cd reduction so that doesn't change anything. You would have to calculate the difference of BW uptime vs the amount of pet damage you would gain with the mastery and BW is pretty stronk these days with set bonuses and huntmaster ring

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    I mean it's not that hard to calculate, you just divide the time given with the cooldown of the haste affected skill and see if you would get any extra casts.

    You would cast DB during BW if you had 2 stacks anyway just to not waste the BW cd reduction so that doesn't change anything. You would have to calculate the difference of BW uptime vs the amount of pet damage you would gain with the mastery and BW is pretty stronk these days with set bonuses and huntmaster ring
    You're not following. While a simulation doesn't care, there's a reason most people aim to get 1-2% haste over the minimum required cap (when one such exists - see MM's Vulnerable windows) due to both latency and player lag. While the sims will show the benefit of the haste instantly, you likely won't actually see it because of minor things (even something as simple as micro-stutters due to having an incorrect latency tolerance). You can calculate it very easily, but those calculations only work in theory. Meanwhile, stats like Crit and Mastery has no such limitations as they require no player input. Haste is a very powerful stat, but it's also the one that you as a player has the most impact on.

    As for casting DB during BW, point is you're less likely to get procs (forcing you to cast DB during BW), while your other abilities will hit harder, with more mastery versus haste. You're correct that DB has the highest priority if you're in danger of wasting procs, and that more procs means more BW windows, though. It's not easy math to do. Either way, people can feel free to believe in haste stacking and Sephuz if they want - I just find it hilarious when people that actually do the math has been saying since freaking CATACLYSM that haste plateus, breakpoints and values are usually unreliable at best, yet people just blindly go off of the sims without double checking when it's fairly easy to do.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    You're not following. While a simulation doesn't care, there's a reason most people aim to get 1-2% haste over the minimum required cap (when one such exists - see MM's Vulnerable windows) due to both latency and player lag. While the sims will show the benefit of the haste instantly, you likely won't actually see it because of minor things (even something as simple as micro-stutters due to having an incorrect latency tolerance). You can calculate it very easily, but those calculations only work in theory. Meanwhile, stats like Crit and Mastery has no such limitations as they require no player input. Haste is a very powerful stat, but it's also the one that you as a player has the most impact on.

    As for casting DB during BW, point is you're less likely to get procs (forcing you to cast DB during BW), while your other abilities will hit harder, with more mastery versus haste. You're correct that DB has the highest priority if you're in danger of wasting procs, and that more procs means more BW windows, though. It's not easy math to do. Either way, people can feel free to believe in haste stacking and Sephuz if they want - I just find it hilarious when people that actually do the math has been saying since freaking CATACLYSM that haste plateus, breakpoints and values are usually unreliable at best, yet people just blindly go off of the sims without double checking when it's fairly easy to do.
    With spell queueing latency honestly isn't much of a factor anymore. You can see this from the logs where casts are neatly places next to each other with not even a millisecond gap.

    BW uptime vs more damage with pets is ofc not math we can do in our head, but simulations are pretty accurate in that regard.

    While I agree that simulations are not 100% accurate, we've come a long way from cataclysm simcraft and if the difference is something like 20k dps, it's very hard for that to be inaccurate unless you're doing low iteration runs

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    With spell queueing latency honestly isn't much of a factor anymore. You can see this from the logs where casts are neatly places next to each other with not even a millisecond gap.

    BW uptime vs more damage with pets is ofc not math we can do in our head, but simulations are pretty accurate in that regard.

    While I agree that simulations are not 100% accurate, we've come a long way from cataclysm simcraft and if the difference is something like 20k dps, it's very hard for that to be inaccurate unless you're doing low iteration runs
    That's sort of my point about spell queueing latency - a lot of people don't have it set correct, thinking it should match their current latency. I was only recently made aware of the need to put it significantly higher to eliminate micro-stutters myself, so it's not like it's super-common knowledge (atleast as far as I'm aware).

    In any case, I'm intrigued enough to give it all a try and see how it plays; You're correct that such a huge DPS difference is hard to explain away (it's much smaller for me - more like 12K than 20K, but that's still more than "chance", and I realistically can't get it much closer than 10K by tinkering with the stat allocations).

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    That's sort of my point about spell queueing latency - a lot of people don't have it set correct, thinking it should match their current latency. I was only recently made aware of the need to put it significantly higher to eliminate micro-stutters myself, so it's not like it's super-common knowledge (atleast as far as I'm aware).

    In any case, I'm intrigued enough to give it all a try and see how it plays; You're correct that such a huge DPS difference is hard to explain away (it's much smaller for me - more like 12K than 20K, but that's still more than "chance", and I realistically can't get it much closer than 10K by tinkering with the stat allocations).
    Yeah that reddit post screwed over quite a large number of people with all those upvoted comments telling people to match their server latency >.>

    I don't think you'll notice a massive difference until you can proc the effect. I think it's more the convenience of wearing it and it giving similar results to a more conventional setup but then having the option to proc it as well for massive dips.

    Also the boots+aotb playstyle is much better for aoe as you've got more free focus to use on multishots during bw

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    Yeah that reddit post screwed over quite a large number of people with all those upvoted comments telling people to match their server latency >.>

    I don't think you'll notice a massive difference until you can proc the effect. I think it's more the convenience of wearing it and it giving similar results to a more conventional setup but then having the option to proc it as well for massive dips.

    Also the boots+aotb playstyle is much better for aoe as you've got more free focus to use on multishots during bw
    While Boots are good for singletarget, I don't imagine it'd win out over bracers on AOE considering you're going heavy into haste and thunderslash-AOE is a thing. Boots provides zero AOE benefit - bracers provides some (while also providing close-ish singletarget damage), along with the utility of a 2 minute immunity and 75 second super-sprint. I'd deffo pick bracers for specifically AOEing.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    While Boots are good for singletarget, I don't imagine it'd win out over bracers on AOE considering you're going heavy into haste and thunderslash-AOE is a thing. Boots provides zero AOE benefit - bracers provides some (while also providing close-ish singletarget damage), along with the utility of a 2 minute immunity and 75 second super-sprint. I'd deffo pick bracers for specifically AOEing.
    Boots provide minimal aoe benefit, you can KC a different target to put the aotb dot on it (as the dot does not add the damage to the previous one)

    Aspect of the wild has diminished utility in aoe when not using killer cobra as you've got more focus to use on multishots

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    Mastery doesn't increase stomp damage?
    Actually I was wrong, it does scale stomp damage. Thought I had checked that before because of the wording of mastery's tooltip but apparently Direbeast and damage associated with them is included.

    That being said, Dracodraco can napkin math it all he wants, zoo build, and particularly aotb builds with stomp ARE going to favor crit/haste stacking over crit/whatever else. There's more interactions haste has than simply autoattack speed, I simply used only that as an example, there's also the extra focus over the course of the fight to consider, as well as the GCD reduction (to help with your scenarios of "too many procs"). Telling someone that because haste is simming above mastery must be due to the simcraft bug that was posted about back when direfrenzy was the go-to spec is just simply inaccurate and leading them down the wrong path. There are legitimate scenarios where Haste will be more important per point for dps than Mastery with these two specs.

    Back when the bug was posted, obviously mastery was more important with the Direfrenzy builds, so haste should not really have ever been above that for anyone, that's just not the case with this build. And, for all we know, this bug has been fixed by now, as I know nuoHep resides in BM/Hunter discords and comments occasionally, and he's responsible for most of the hunter things in simc IIRC. And finally, it's not like Azor is cutting edge with BM information these days. Hell, the BM discord community had to tell him about the better viability of stomp/zoo/aotb builds. For many weeks into ToS it was still pointing to Direfrenzy builds with no 2pc/4pc setups.
    Last edited by Mavick; 2017-08-11 at 05:10 PM.

  10. #30
    So without the huntmaster ring, which combo of legendaries you'd mostly recommend as "second best" setup?

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    So without the huntmaster ring, which combo of legendaries you'd mostly recommend as "second best" setup?
    Any legendary that doesn't conflict with a tier slot can be viable. There is no "across the board bis" setup for BM with stomp builds atm. Personally I'm wearing boots/sephuz running stomp/owtp/aotb for all fights. So far this tier i've ran combinations of huntmaster/belt/boots/prydaz/sephuz. It really matters more what your replacement pieces are for those slots, they're all so ridiculously close, with sephuz pulling way ahead on fights that you can proc it. Because, turns out, haste is actually a thing after all....

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    So without the huntmaster ring, which combo of legendaries you'd mostly recommend as "second best" setup?
    It all depends on your other gear. For a while shoulders and apex predator was my bis. But now that I have 4 piece wrists and sephuz are bis. So you really have to sim yourself for every upgrade.

    I use the simpermut addon per the hunter guide. I export all my gear and go to raidbots.com and do a best in bags sim. Sometimes it's a 5% difference, otherwise a 1% so it's up to you whether you want to spend the time or just go with what you have.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    While Boots are good for singletarget, I don't imagine it'd win out over bracers on AOE considering you're going heavy into haste and thunderslash-AOE is a thing. Boots provides zero AOE benefit - bracers provides some (while also providing close-ish singletarget damage), along with the utility of a 2 minute immunity and 75 second super-sprint. I'd deffo pick bracers for specifically AOEing.
    So how the hell we config the /Spell i play with 180/200+ latency xD

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    It all depends on your other gear. For a while shoulders and apex predator was my bis. But now that I have 4 piece wrists and sephuz are bis. So you really have to sim yourself for every upgrade.

    I use the simpermut addon per the hunter guide. I export all my gear and go to raidbots.com and do a best in bags sim. Sometimes it's a 5% difference, otherwise a 1% so it's up to you whether you want to spend the time or just go with what you have.
    Is there a way to do that without being a patron? It keeps telling me that I'm over some limit.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by madokbro View Post
    Is there a way to do that without being a patron? It keeps telling me that I'm over some limit.
    You may have to limit how many pieces you're simming at a time. For example don't choose 5 items in every slot. Stick to 1-2 in each slot and maybe run trinkets later if you're doing them at the same time. Trinkets tend not to change when your other gear changes.

    Then in the 2 or 4 piece choose specifically you want 2 or 4 piece of T19 or 20. That will usually get the iterations below 300k.

    In the simulation options you can try 10k or 5k interations if you're setting it higher. That will bump the overall iterations down.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    As I told a friend of mine when he said it was simming best for him without proc - "I'd be very surprised if that's actually correct". Remember that part of this rings power (when not triggering the effect, of course) relies on the fact that it basically gives 750 free haste rating at all times. That's a decent amount, by all means, but compare it to Apex Predator (I assume Huntsmaster is already equipped, so that leaves Apex+Sephuz) and you've got a ring that, granted, will give about .8% less crit than Sephuz, but on the other hand, has mastery and +5% pet damage (plus other smaller benefits like the charge thing). I quite simply don't see it; You're relying on 2K haste and 320 crit being a better deal than 1.6K mastery and +5% pet damage. Unless there's haste-breakpoint shenanigans going on, that's not logical in any way, shape or form.
    I understand that the sims can overvalue Haste, but there's a few more details to account.

    First off, since mastery is such a good stat for BM hunters, most of us already have a lot of it. Diminishing returns make mastery worth less than Haste. Of course this would not be true if you have more haste than mastery, but for example, I have almost twice as much Mastery rating as I do haste rating, which lowers the value of mastery and increases the value of haste. It makes sense that Haste is worth a lot given my current stat distribution. This will be the same for almost every hunter that has been gearing with Mastery (all of us?).

    The 5% buff from Apex is incredibly weak for the zoo build. It only buffs direct damage from your main pet. Not any damage from Hati, not Dire Beast, not Cobra Shot, and only part of Thunderslash and Titan's Thunder (most of Titan's Thunder's damage comes from the Dire Beasts since the tier 19 effect applies to it). The zoo build does a lot of its damage from Dire Beasts + Stomp, and all the extra dire beasts also buff Cobra shot via Way of the Cobra. My logs show direct damage from my pet is only about 30% of my damage (currently using zoo build with Sephuz and Qa'pla), so the 5% buff is in fact a 1.5% buff to dps, which is a lot more underwhelming than it initially sounds.

    1.5% damage bonus damage is comparable to 2% Haste. My sims show Sephuz only 5k dps above Apex, which is about the same. This is perfectly reasonable.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    So without the huntmaster ring, which combo of legendaries you'd mostly recommend as "second best" setup?
    Its highly dependent on your gear.

    I have every BM legendary, and huntmaster does not sim out the best for me. Best for me is Belt and Wrist.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Agallion View Post
    Its highly dependent on your gear.

    I have every BM legendary, and huntmaster does not sim out the best for me. Best for me is Belt and Wrist.
    Are you using any T19? What is your item level?

    I entered heroic ToS at 914 with 2pc T19, and I'm now 934 with 4pc T20 and 945/950 pieces in off-tier slots. I have all BM legendaries.
    I've been running Way of the Cobra, Stomp, One with the Pack, and Killer Cobra the whole time.
    The Belt/Huntmaster combo has been consistently the best setup for me, with the exception of a brief time where raidbots suggested to use Kil'Jaeden's Burning Wish (my best alternative at that time was an 890 Convergence)
    I've simmed myself from the beginning of the tier, and at no point has any other talent configuration or legendary combination prevailed over Belt/Huntmaster.

    I finally replaced 2pc T19 when I got some 930 gloves out of a Mythic+ cache to replace 890 Eagletalon gloves, and cemented T19's retirement with 945 KJ gloves and 950 shoulders out of a 4-mythic dungeon weekend cache.

    Early in the tier (ilvl 914-925), my stat weights favored crit heavily, but after replacing T19, they have gotten remarkably even. At 934, I'm almost indifferent to secondary stats except versatility, which is clearly the worst.

    Curious to see what setup is suggesting to use bracers, and see if you are better or worse geared than me. I'm only 1/9M.
    Last edited by Vaerys; 2017-08-25 at 09:59 PM.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaerys View Post
    Are you using any T19? What is your item level?

    I entered heroic ToS at 914 with 2pc T19, and I'm now 934 with 4pc T20 and 945/950 pieces in off-tier slots. I have all BM legendaries.
    I've been running Way of the Cobra, Stomp, One with the Pack, and Killer Cobra the whole time.
    The Belt/Huntmaster combo has been consistently the best setup for me, with the exception of a brief time where raidbots suggested to use Kil'Jaeden's Burning Wish (my best alternative at that time was an 890 Convergence)
    I've simmed myself from the beginning of the tier, and at no point has any other talent configuration or legendary combination prevailed over Belt/Huntmaster.

    I finally replaced 2pc T19 when I got some 930 gloves out of a Mythic+ cache to replace 890 Eagletalon gloves, and cemented T19's retirement with 945 KJ gloves and 950 shoulders out of a 4-mythic dungeon weekend cache.

    Early in the tier (ilvl 914-925), my stat weights favored crit heavily, but after replacing T19, they have gotten remarkably even. At 934, I'm almost indifferent to secondary stats except versatility, which is clearly the worst.

    Curious to see what setup is still suggesting to use bracers.
    im using bracers+895 convergence with 915 t19

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaerys View Post
    Are you using any T19? What is your item level?

    I entered heroic ToS at 914 with 2pc T19, and I'm now 934 with 4pc T20 and 945/950 pieces in off-tier slots. I have all BM legendaries.
    I've been running Way of the Cobra, Stomp, One with the Pack, and Killer Cobra the whole time.
    The Belt/Huntmaster combo has been consistently the best setup for me, with the exception of a brief time where raidbots suggested to use Kil'Jaeden's Burning Wish (my best alternative at that time was an 890 Convergence)
    I've simmed myself from the beginning of the tier, and at no point has any other talent configuration or legendary combination prevailed over Belt/Huntmaster.

    I finally replaced 2pc T19 when I got some 930 gloves out of a Mythic+ cache to replace 890 Eagletalon gloves, and cemented T19's retirement with 945 KJ gloves and 950 shoulders out of a 4-mythic dungeon weekend cache.

    Early in the tier (ilvl 914-925), my stat weights favored crit heavily, but after replacing T19, they have gotten remarkably even. At 934, I'm almost indifferent to secondary stats except versatility, which is clearly the worst.

    Curious to see what setup is suggesting to use bracers, and see if you are better or worse geared than me. I'm only 1/9M.

    Bracers+Qapla for singletarget with Aspect of the beast is my best combo (and that's while having a pair of 945 KJ boots in my bags), and for AOE it's bracers+belt. I still maintain the huntsmaster ring for M+ because a bigger part of the dungeon is spent under BW (as your cds are resetting between pulls) than in a consistent fight, and with them being so close, it have a hard time imagining Huntsmaster not pull ahead (and it allows for extra burst to smash hard/dangerous mob packs).

    I have a 915+socket convergence, which is equal to any mythic level trinket, which the bracers "feed" off of; They'd be weaker if I didn't have a convergence.

    That being said, the utility of lower CD aspects is super nice.

    For reference, this is my gear for Avatar (pure single target fight):
    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...ull/dracodraco Simming out at ~1281K according to raidbots. Sephuz and Prydaz are both slightly behind. Some of it might also have to do with what item you're replacing; My bracers are 920 haste/crit/socketed ones, which makes them pretty bad in comparison to all my other slots (925 rings, 930 belt and neck etc). That being said, combos including switching either of my current legendaries (qa'pla or wrists) will result in very, very minor DPS loss; It's just that this combo is also pretty strong for Avatar as a fight (reduced sprint CD for P2 is very useful, and turtle can be pretty much guaranteed to save you from a death in p1 each time you use it, so having it on a shorter CD is great). Qa'pla also means I'm not *as* reliant on making sure BW is up for the shield to get decent damage on it (because of KC resets), while thus providing more boss damage; If I wore huntsmaster instead, I'd be guaranteed to have to save BW for shields to do anything major to them.

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