"Gogogo!!!", or "You pull, you tank"

[Deleted]

Tanks aren't the group leaders, if the rogue thinks he has the dps to handle more, just pull more.

Except it's not about what the dps can handle, but what the tank and healer can handle. It doesn't matter if you're the best dps in the world, if you pull more than the tank/healer can handle your group is going to wipe regardless.

[kamuimac]

Exactly this, there are just few tanks in my guild and i've been encouraging people to start tanking and often joining them on instances to give them tips and pointers when they are getting used to tanking. They tend to go tad slower (not even superslow, just slightly slower) and too often it ends to situation like OP mentioned. Often even flaming the tank. Very encouraging for these newer tanks and sadly many of them have not tanked since as they fill a role of dps/healer without getting shouted at.

but bashing dps for doin low dps is perfeckly ok eh ? its exackly the same situation yet when new to spec dps peopel have no mercy - why should they have such for tanks ? double standards much ?

[Deleted]

Pace is always going to be the first thing to cause arguments in pugs (well almost always the first thing anyways). I prefer setting the pace with the healer when I'm tanking, after all it's on us to keep the group alive outside of people standing in fire or what ever. If dps keeps pulling ahead I'll tank it to the point where it wipes the group. I'll then ask them to stop and if they don't stop doing it after that I'll vote to kick. If vote is declined I'll be on my way as I have better things to do then.

[Xarathan]

Except it's not about what the dps can handle, but what the tank and healer can handle. It doesn't matter if you're the best dps in the world, if you pull more than the tank/healer can handle your group is going to wipe regardless.

Not sure if we play the same game, but last time i checked mobs dying quick made jt easier on both tanks and healers... However for a dps to carry in such fashion a lot of DPS is required

[huth]

Tanks aren't the group leaders, if the rogue thinks he has the dps to handle more, just pull more.

I often get the lead dumped on me at the start of dungeons without even asking. And that technically doesn't even make any noticeable difference. Many people do assume that the tank will lead.

And many of those players doing the pulling have nowhere near the DPS to handle it. Or even handle what's already on the plate.

[Waldor666]

Situation: RDF, tank going at his pace, rogue decides it's not fast enough, goes pulling packs, tank gives no f*cks, rogue dies, rogue throws tantrum, tank says "You pull, you tank".


Question: Who's in the right?

I feel like you might have been in a dungeon with me because I say this all the time when people ninja pull. I am pretty well geared so I do pretty big pulsl anyway, but then people seem to get into some sort of crazy pull mentality so I just chill out and let them die haha

[Sencha]

And after that, people don't understand there are less and less tanks available for pugs

[Deleted]

Tank is right. Even if he is slow as fuck, let him do his thing. Most tanks don't go slow on purpose just to be obnoxious, they either are newer tanks or are waiting on CDs, or just aren't that good.

Pulling tons of extra shit and spamming "go" is very obnoxious, no way around it. Maybe pull a couple of extra mobs that you think you can handle if you really can't spend the extra 5 minutes on the dungeon, but don't bitch because you die since it's completely your fault.

Never cared for it really, I always pulled as a dps...I love that tanks think I'm bothered by the "you pull you tank attitude" as I rarely died and more often than not everybody just follows my lead with the tank being forced to do so as well.

If a tank is new and wants to do things slow he needs to do so beforehand or I'll assume he knows his shit. When I tank and am new somewhere I also inform people to take it easy.

Long story short, either communicate you can't handle the usual speed or stfu...you don't get to be quiet at the start and complain half way in.

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And after that, people don't understand there are less and less tanks available for pugs

It's because they get queues faster and gear up faster at about 3-5x speed of a dps class resulting in them not queueing anymore for said content.

It literally has nothing to do with the attitude of players.

[Cazz17]

If someone pulls when I'm the tank, I let them die, simple as. Unless it's a high m+, in which the dps don't tend to pull.

[Sencha]

It's because they get queues faster and gear up faster at about 3-5x speed of a dps class resulting in them not queueing anymore for said content.

It literally has nothing to do with the attitude of players.

Yeah sure, keep thinking that

[Deleted]

The tank was right.
If I'm not comfortable with my own tanking in a certain situation or if the Healer seems like a slacker or is in really bad gear, I take it at a pace that gets us through fine without anyone dying. If a dps thinks it's too slow and pulls ahead, I let him die. It's that simple.

[Salty Maud]

I like how you people call a tank that's not fast enough lazy and retarded.

Lazy and retarded is perhaps the wrong choice of words, but in the context of dungeons a slow tank is a bad tank. Just like low dps is bad dps.

If you know you have a good tank, pulling more with something like misdirection or tricks will make the clear more efficient, but if you have a bad tank pulling more is likely not gonna help. In the OP example both were wrong: tank had a attitude problem on top of being slow and rogue should have realized not to pull more when the tank can't handle it.

[Visor]

Always do tank job in trash instances as my mage. Neck legendary with barrier plus copies (agro reset) plus invise + nova/blinks. If rogue with all his def cds are dying - he simply a retard. And deserve to die.

[Deleted]

but bashing dps for doin low dps is perfeckly ok eh ? its exackly the same situation yet when new to spec dps peopel have no mercy - why should they have such for tanks ? double standards much ?

First of all i didn't at any point that it'd be okay. From my experience bashing the lower dps doesn't even occur that much anymore. This however is just from my own personal experience.

Secondly the rogue discussed here wasn't on trial for doing low dps, but of making (possibly new and still learning) tanks work unneccesarily harder by trying to force him to stretch in position he clearly wasn't comfortable with, whatever the reasons might be.

[Deleted]

Not sure if we play the same game, but last time i checked mobs dying quick made jt easier on both tanks and healers... However for a dps to carry in such fashion a lot of DPS is required

And last time I checked dps usually don't kill trash mobs faster than the trash mobs kill the tank if it becomes too much for the tank to handle. Ever done mythic plus ever? Or do you only run daily heroic?

[Mectrid]

Never cared for it really, I always pulled as a dps...I love that tanks think I'm bothered by the "you pull you tank attitude" as I rarely died and more often than not everybody just follows my lead with the tank being forced to do so as well.

If a tank is new and wants to do things slow he needs to do so beforehand or I'll assume he knows his shit. When I tank and am new somewhere I also inform people to take it easy.

Long story short, either communicate you can't handle the usual speed or stfu...you don't get to be quiet at the start and complain half way in.

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It's because they get queues faster and gear up faster at about 3-5x speed of a dps class resulting in them not queueing anymore for said content.

It literally has nothing to do with the attitude of players.

Usual speed? He probably was going his usual speed, but because he's not going your usual speed it's your right to set the groups speed? This kind of thinking is silly. Why would he feel the need to communicate "Guys I'm taking this dungeon at the speed I normally tank it when I come here" Should he know you clear a dungeon 5-10 minutes faster than him on average at the start of the group?

[Deleted]

Usual speed? He probably was going his usual speed, but because he's not going your usual speed it's your right to set the groups speed? This kind of thinking is silly. Why would he feel the need to communicate "Guys I'm taking this dungeon at the speed I normally tank it when I come here" Should he know you clear a dungeon 5-10 minutes faster than him on average at the start of the group?

It's common knowledge people do things as fast and as efficient possible. If you know beforehand you can't handle that, it literally takes 2 seconds to communicate this to the group. If you don't I'll assume you can handle it and pull in what I assume the group can handle.

Don't act like you don't know how fast a dungeon can be cleared at when you have done it dozens of times. Don't be a pussy, open your mouth and speak up if you know you will perform below the average. (it's nothing to be ashamed off, especially if you are a new player)

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Yeah sure, keep thinking that

It's a fact.

Average queue time with tanks is 2-10mins tops, dps it's 20-40mins. Meaning at the very least a tank can start his second dungeon before the dps even got in his first. Keep in mind this proces for 2 weeks (let's be generous with the time) and your tank is fully geared while your dps is half way there with some luck.

The tank no longer needs to queue aside from his daily dungeon while the dps still needs to farm twice as long. So in the time it takes to gear up 1 dps, at least 2 tanks are fully geared.

It's something that will never change, you could double the amount of tanks and they will still stop queueing the moment they got all they need from dungeons. Don't forget that raiding guilds only need a few tanks as well, so there is no room for more tanks.

In terms of bad attitude, dps are off worse as they get stuck with toxic attitude after waiting for ages and they can't leave with a serious panelty.

Just to clarify, I rarely had/have any issues in groups as I tend to keep a positive attitude and pull extra in a lightmooded way ("Let's see if we can handle 2 packs? "). It makes a world of difference in how you present yourself.

[reauxmont]

This would only be true if pulling the extra mobs made the run faster which is almost never the case.

[...]

You guys make it sound as if everything is dead, consumables used, everyone at full hp and prepared and you are standing in front of the mobs for half a minute waiting.
I don't remember a single experience of that happening in M+ ever.

OP mentioned a tank "going at his pace", and a DPS thinking that pace was too slow. But we can't really continue here without making assumptions about the intelligence of the DPS. If the DPS wants to speed up the pace, and is an experienced player, he won't do the things you listed, because it won't speed up the run, but slow it down.

I remember running M+ shortly after the release of Legion, and there were a lot of tanks who just couldn't estimate the optimal pace, meaning maximizing speed and the amount of packs to pull while still surviving. It makes a huge difference if you have a tank who knows / estimates the optimal pace in an M+ vs. someone who doesn't. I'm not talking about standing around for minutes, but even little things like starting moving to the next pack when the first pack is <10% HP (aside from bolstering, obviously). Good tanks occupy DPS and heal for 100% of the run, not allowing any downtime to happen, aside from forced mana breaks if the healer runs too low.

Another example is random heroics. If you do a random heroic now, and are decently geared, you basically won't need a tank or heal. I mostly queue as heal, and switch to DPS when we're in the dungeon. Because the role of the tank is not really needed, I just pull basically everything. I've gotten a lot of hate for that, especially from tanks who don't have any gear. They just apply the "I'm the tank, I should pull" principle, disregarding that their role is basically useless and that I could probably solo the dungeon, and get mad if I'm not complying.

[Waltzinblack]

If this is happening the tank needs to pull faster. If the DPS aren't still DPSing mobs that have been pulled then it's time to pull.

[Deleted]

Depends on the situation, how difficult the dungeon is and how skilled your healer is. Ninja-pulling in a high Mythic key dungeon with gnarly affixes is usually going to result in a wipe if the tank isn't ready to pick up the mobs. If it's something that can be easily handled then I guess it's less of an issue.

You shouldn't ninja pull if the tank is being slow - you can certainly say something like "why are we pulling so slowly?" and ask the tank to go a bit faster, but if you ninja pull then it's probably going to do nothing but encourage that tank to play a different role because ninja pullers are the bane of their existence.

If the tank has gone AFK, he/she should at least say that so the DPS and healer aren't sitting there wondering what's going on. Tank might also be going slow for the healer's sake, if that healer is either new to healing or just undergeared.

So it's not cut and dry it can be multipul situations.