A Swiss hotel asks Jewish guests to shower before entering the pool

[soulcrusher]

It's a bit blunt but clearly there's been a problem and the hotels tried to address it. What's their problem with showering anyway?

[Deleted]

Exactly, for example in a lot of hotels Russian people were loud and annoying to other hotel guests and the hotel gave said instructions to Russians as well.

Though I don't know if it is a case of racism or just because Jewish people being more obnoxious in this case at the hotel I just take my current expirience both in private and at work that some groups are harder to deal with and sometimes need different rules or rather need an extra notice to do or not do something that is common sense to other people.

If it is racism, fuck those people...

Pretty much this.

[lonely zergling]

If you notice a problem with certain groups of people are you supposed to just ignore it? Showering before entering the pool is standard everyone should know this in the year 2017.

[Raelbo]

its irrelevant if you only read 3 post in a 8 page thread..

It's irrelevant because it's a strawman that detracts from the actual argument.

As @Nexx226 correctly observed, a lot of the apologists for the hotel are trying to argue that the hotel was justified because the Jews were infringing the rules. Where he got it wrong was that he failed to recognise the strawman and got suckered into a debate about the validity of the infringement. It doesn't matter whether you can prove that the guests were guilty or not, it doesn't justify the racist tone of the sign.

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If you notice a problem with certain groups of people are you supposed to just ignore it?

No, you don't have to ignore the problem. But play the ball, not the player. Don't go making it about race, make it about the action.

In other words, DO put up a sign telling people what is acceptable/not acceptable. DON'T point the finger at a specific ethnic group. It's unnecessary, counter-productive (because it riles people up instead of getting them to co-operate) and exposes them for their racial prejudices.

If specific guests continue to ignore the sign, speak to them individually and politely. Put an attendant by the pool to do this.

[Jaransan]

Given the manager's reasons for putting the signs up, would it not have just made more fucking sense to have signs that politely said 'Dear Guests, please shower before using the pool' and 'the fridge is open from x to x' without reference for religion? What the manager wanted jewish guests to do was just something I assume MOST guests would be expected to do - slapping a religious designation on the signs seems so arbitrarily stupid it makes me wonder what the heck was going on in her head at the time.

Thats the type of stupid that comes all the way back around into a skill. Even the most blatant racist can come up with better less actionable ways to be passive aggressive.

[Raelbo]

It's a bit blunt but clearly there's been a problem and the hotels tried to address it.

Yes, there is a problem. Yes they can try and address it. But that doesn't give them carte blanche to do whatever they like to address the problem. The issue here is not about the fact that there was an issue that needed to be addressed. It's about the way it was addressed.

What's their problem with showering anyway?

The issue here has nothing to do with showering. It has to do with the racist manner in which the hotel addresses issues.

[tumppu]

So why exactly would jewish people not want to take a shower before going into the pool? Seems like it's quite a problem, since the hotel is considering closing the pool entirely. Obviously we then forget whatever shit they pulled and accuse the hotel of antisemitism instead...

I bet it's all due to jewish racism. They think austrians are nazi and are secretly trying to gas them. Again. Fucking racist jews.

(I'm not being terribly serious in this post, btw).

[lonely zergling]

It's irrelevant because it's a strawman that detracts from the actual argument.

As @Nexx226 correctly observed, a lot of the apologists for the hotel are trying to argue that the hotel was justified because the Jews were infringing the rules. Where he got it wrong was that he failed to recognise the strawman and got suckered into a debate about the validity of the infringement. It doesn't matter whether you can prove that the guests were guilty or not, it doesn't justify the racist tone of the sign.

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No, you don't have to ignore the problem. But play the ball, not the player. Don't go making it about race, make it about the action.

In other words, DO put up a sign telling people what is acceptable/not acceptable. DON'T point the finger at a specific ethnic group. It's unnecessary, counter-productive (because it riles people up instead of getting them to co-operate) and exposes them for their racial prejudices.

If specific guests continue to ignore the sign, speak to them individually and politely. Put an attendant by the pool to do this.

Who cares about the feelings of a minority grp. As long as the majority gets a better experience with this overall everything is fine.

[Raelbo]

Thats the type of stupid that comes all the way back around into a skill. Even the most blatant racist can come up with better less actionable ways to be passive aggressive.

Many racists and bigots are incapable of recognising how or why what they are doing is wrong, no matter how obvious it is to the rest of us. Little wonder then that we regard such people as stupid....

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Who cares about the feelings of a minority grp. As long as the majority gets a better experience with this overall everything is fine.

That is a very foolish philosophy to follow. It's called Ochlocracy, more commonly known as Mob rule.

It's the kind of philosophy that appeals to people who think they're safe because they're part of the mob and are too stupid to realise that everyone belongs to some form of minority.

[tumppu]

The issue here has nothing to do with showering. It has to do with the racist manner in which the hotel addresses issues.

If the problems are directly caused by jewish people, then you address the note to jewish people. It's not fucking racism! The rules obviously apply to anyone and they as a group have been breaking that rule, so they got told to abide. Yelling racism just makes them petty.

Here in finland, we've had problems with muslim women wanting to go swim in their robes in swimming halls, even when told not to. They refuse to use bathing suits due to their religion. Rather than simply deny them the use, communities have reserved segregated times for muslim bathers only. Personally, I'd rather we do exactly like they did in austria and said: "here's the rules, abide by them and all is fine, otherwise swim elsewhere". But naah, we bent in the face of their racism and now we have segregation in swimming pools. It's a fucking travesty.

[Fat Mac]

'the fridge is open from x to x' without reference for religion?.

although it was after the fact, it was specifically for Kosher food. guess what group follows that practice?

[Mizix]

It seems to me that the sign was put up before anyone even arrived at the hotel. That's the issue.

That was not the case though. Still poor wording on the manager part but the signs went up after repeated bad behavior from a particular group of guests that happened to be Jewish. I'm sure she would of worded it "To our Italian guests..." if they were Italians, etc. Honestly don't see why you would argue she preemptively put the signs up when the story is different, unless you know, for the sake of argument...

[Najnaj]

If you read the entire interview with hotel staff you quickly realize that this is a semantic problem, not a racist one.

[Jaransan]

If the problems are directly caused by jewish people, then you address the note to jewish people. It's not fucking racism! The rules obviously apply to anyone and they as a group have been breaking that rule, so they got told to abide. Yelling racism just makes them petty.

Here in finland, we've had problems with muslim women wanting to go swim in their robes in swimming halls, even when told not to. They refuse to use bathing suits due to their religion. Rather than simply deny them the use, communities have reserved segregated times for muslim bathers only. Personally, I'd rather we do exactly like they did in austria and said: "here's the rules, abide by them and all is fine, otherwise swim elsewhere". But naah, we bent in the face of their racism and now we have segregation in swimming pools. It's a fucking travesty.

I think the problem your argument immediately runs into was that as far as I can tell nowhere does it say they witnessed, proved, or found that it was specifically jewish people causing the problem. The managers flimsly logic was literally 'a fair percentage of the people here happen to be jewish. must be them.'

You can't reasonably point to any aspect of the jewish religion or jewish traditions that would cause them to specifically refuse to shower before going to the pool, so that is also not worthwhile as an argument - because ofcourse you are not inherently wrong in stating that if you can 100% prove its a designate group that you should target said group. But the thing is, in the vast majority of racist situations like this theres no proof going into that conclusion. Theres no reasonable argument to be had for why specifically those people. Its always arguments on the pathetic level of 'Honest Abe had a beard, Jesus also had a beard, therefore Abe was Jesus'. Its literally ridiculous.

The managers reasoning for why it must be jewish people is the same type of ridiculous and stupid argument that makes extreme feminists say all men are monsters, or antifa types say that all conservatives are nazis.

[Raelbo]

If the problems are directly caused by jewish people, then you address the note to jewish people. It's not fucking racism!

Actually, that's exactly how racism works. If it's not obvious to you, then really, I am at a loss...

[Jaransan]

although it was after the fact, it was specifically for Kosher food. guess what group follows that practice?

Yeah but the sign didn't reference kosher food - it just said 'listen here jews, leave us alone from x to x' the translation in the article, I admit, may be coming across as more aggressive because of whatever language it was originally written in, assuming it wasn't english, or the creator themself wasn't a master of the language. I mean come on, setting aside the right or wrong of it for a second (racially speaking) does that seem like the type of language you appreciate from a business to its customers? I'm sure the vast majority of people on this forum have worked in at least one service job. Just imagine your waiter at a restaraunt walking up and telling you not to order the chicken wings right now because its a bitch to go into the fridge and he wishes you would just leave him alone.

[Raelbo]

although it was after the fact, it was specifically for Kosher food. guess what group follows that practice?

As I said in previous posts, the note can be addressed to Jewish people, but the tone needs to be right.

Fine:

"Dear Jewish guests: You are welcome to use our freezer facilities to store any Kosher food. Kindly note that the freezer will be accessible between the hours of 10:00 to 11:00 and 16:30 to 17:30"

Not fine:

"To our Jewish guests: The freezer is only available from 10:00 to 11:00 and 16:30 to 17:30. I hope you understand that our team does not like being disturbed all the time"


Sure, they both communicate certain requirements to the guests, but the subtext between the two is very different.

[Krasses Pferd]

Yeah but the sign didn't reference kosher food - it just said 'listen here jews, leave us alone from x to x' the translation in the article, I admit, may be coming across as more aggressive because of whatever language it was originally written in, assuming it wasn't english, or the creator themself wasn't a master of the language. I mean come on, setting aside the right or wrong of it for a second (racially speaking) does that seem like the type of language you appreciate from a business to its customers? I'm sure the vast majority of people on this forum have worked in at least one service job. Just imagine your waiter at a restaraunt walking up and telling you not to order the chicken wings right now because its a bitch to go into the fridge and he wishes you would just leave him alone.

The case is a bit more detailed on the Swiss news. The hotel in question is not really a hotel, but an appartement house where you can rent rooms. There is no staff. The lady in question is not a manager, she's just cleaning there and was tasked by the owner to ensure that house rules are followed.

[Dolus]

Yes it is. And no, I didn't ignore anything. This is a case of Israeli people pulling out the "Anti-Semitic" card just because someone used the word "Jewish" and then told Jewish people they can't do whatever they want.

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Because it was refering to the influx of new Jewish guests, who happened to have particular habits the Hotel wanted to refer them on.

Would you be offended if the sign said, "To our English guests please fix your teeth before coming to our morning breakfast. Also, if you must drink, don't vomit on the side walk." ?

[Deleted]

If there are 1000 jews and 5000 other people and 100 people broke this rule and 99 were jews and 1 wasn't, then that's 99% of the offenders being jewish but the vast majority still following the rules.

That still very much sounds like a Jewish problem then.