Does ToS already killed any guilds?

[Unforgivenn]

So, back in nighthold, a lot of guilds died because of the hard difficulty of that raid, and now looking at ToS, it seems to be the hardest raid this expansion..


according to wowprogress,

nh mythic was released on jan 24th

first guldan kill was feb, 4th

after 2 months of nighthold, march, 24th, 61 guilds have killed gul'dan

now,

Tomb of Sargeras openned jun 27th

and almost 2 months after its release (today is aug 25th), only 29 guilds killed it. (kil'jaeden)

does this has something of tos being too hard, or just guild disbanded/stop raiding/casual schedule or its the result of various guilds ended in nh progression?

[Salty Maud]

EN was tuned low. ToV was okay-ish (Odyn and guarm were fine, helya was a bit on the difficult side before nerf), NH was perfect imo. ToS is tuned pretty high compared to previous raids. There is no doubt that guilds have died during ToS (including mine, RIP Sydäntalvi@darksorrow eu), but the real damage was done during the early expansion (first two raids or so) when so many players quit due to burnout (not raid difficulty), damage from which many guilds are still recovering.

I'm okay with how ToS is tuned, it's tuned high right now, but once the crucible is open we should see a lot more guilds finishing the raid.

[netherflame]

Mistress is a pretty misplaced fight in the raid, considering there aren't very many 6/9 guilds once you kill mistress you basically get Maiden as a gift it creates a really strange feeling where there is a pretty big difficulty spike mid raid that goes back into a easy fight.

[Varolyn]

Mistress is a pretty misplaced fight in the raid, considering there aren't very many 6/9 guilds once you kill mistress you basically get Maiden as a gift it creates a really strange feeling where there is a pretty big difficulty spike mid raid that goes back into a easy fight.

Same thing happened in HFC with Gorefiend. Though you could argue that it made more sense there cause you got 3 "easy" bosses after gorefiend that would help your raid get more gear.

[Salty Maud]

Mistress is a pretty misplaced fight in the raid, considering there aren't very many 6/9 guilds once you kill mistress you basically get Maiden as a gift it creates a really strange feeling where there is a pretty big difficulty spike mid raid that goes back into a easy fight.

The difficulty curve in raids is often a bit wonky. Gorefiend was somewhat of a cockblock in the middle of HFC, in EN Xavius was easier than Cenarius and maybe even Ilgynoth. NH had a pretty natural difficulty curve, first three were easy, krosus was a early progression gear check, the last three were more challenging. We can thank the fact that we could choose the kill order for that.

[Fleckens]

Mistress is a pretty misplaced fight in the raid, considering there aren't very many 6/9 guilds once you kill mistress you basically get Maiden as a gift it creates a really strange feeling where there is a pretty big difficulty spike mid raid that goes back into a easy fight.

I'm currently working on kj, have killed avatar 3 times. After her nerfs I'd say mistress is fine, the real issue lies in avatar and kj. Avatar's tuning would be fine, if he was the last boss, but as he is he feels a bit overtuned. But then you get to kj and avatar suddenly seems like an easy fight. While I wasn't a huge fan of Gul'dan he was a far better fight than kj, took me about half of the progression before I started to dislike gul'dan while I'm disliking kj from almost the first pull, it's just a shit fight and pretty overtuned.

[netherflame]

I'm currently working on kj, have killed avatar 3 times. After her nerfs I'd say mistress is fine, the real issue lies in avatar and kj. Avatar's tuning would be fine, if he was the last boss, but as he is he feels a bit overtuned. But then you get to kj and avatar suddenly seems like an easy fight. While I wasn't a huge fan of Gul'dan he was a far better fight than kj, took me about half of the progression before I started to dislike gul'dan while I'm disliking kj from almost the first pull, it's just a shit fight and pretty overtuned.

The transition to Avatar and KJ reminds me of firelands, where you'd get through Domo and then just get your head caved in for a month.

[BiggestNoob]

Soaks aren't something gear helps with. Even with 5 million HP you can die to Sassy's shot damage from natural combo (it's RNG, you can't always have a personal for every single one), which is why I'm surprised there hasn't been a nerf to it or a nerf to the fact that Acid ticks immediately (before the shot even hits). Avatar's reasonable if poorly designed with 5 rogues, but it's not with 2 or fewer. It's just really unforgiving in general, a failure in line soaking even briefly means you push with several percent more needed to do in P2 and P2 is a clusterfuck even in rekills. KJ is just shit design through and through.

I'm sure plenty of guilds will die to any of the 3 difficult bosses in this instance. Seeing guilds take 100+ pulls to rekill Avatar indicates a problem. It means they got lucky on their first kill (or even all of them), and that shouldn't be a thing. There are numerous guilds losing huge portions of their raid time weekly to clearing up to KJ, so if you actually care about killing that boss, the ideal approach is just extending until it's dead (which is common, unfortunately, even if you're only saving pulls on Avatar). I honestly don't have any interest rekilling either Avatar or KJ. Reclearing NH wasn't that bad and a lot of the fights were increasingly fun with more gear, but ToS has a bunch of too easy bosses and some that aren't fun to rekill. Hopefully this next raid isn't shit, but from what I'm hearing it's looking to be more of the same ToS garbage.

[Deleted]

Nope. Casuals have fun wiping 2-4x4hrs per week on one boss for months

[Deja Thoris]

Soaks aren't something gear helps with. Even with 5 million HP you can die to Sassy's shot damage from natural combo (it's RNG, you can't always have a personal for every single one), which is why I'm surprised there hasn't been a nerf to it or a nerf to the fact that Acid ticks immediately (before the shot even hits). Avatar's reasonable if poorly designed with 5 rogues, but it's not with 2 or fewer. It's just really unforgiving in general, a failure in line soaking even briefly means you push with several percent more needed to do in P2 and P2 is a clusterfuck even in rekills. KJ is just shit design through and through.

I'm sure plenty of guilds will die to any of the 3 difficult bosses in this instance. Seeing guilds take 100+ pulls to rekill Avatar indicates a problem. It means they got lucky on their first kill (or even all of them), and that shouldn't be a thing. There are numerous guilds losing huge portions of their raid time weekly to clearing up to KJ, so if you actually care about killing that boss, the ideal approach is just extending until it's dead (which is common, unfortunately, even if you're only saving pulls on Avatar). I honestly don't have any interest rekilling either Avatar or KJ. Reclearing NH wasn't that bad and a lot of the fights were increasingly fun with more gear, but ToS has a bunch of too easy bosses and some that aren't fun to rekill. Hopefully this next raid isn't shit, but from what I'm hearing it's looking to be more of the same ToS garbage.

This will be nerfed soon(ish) its sort of inevitable. The guilds that are killing these bosses now are the ones that have players that are willing to reroll so they have a load of rogues etc. Guilds that don't have loads of players willing or able to reroll will be on those bosses soon and they'll have to change it to keep people progressing.

[Tojara]

Saw lots of guilds die on Mistress just from watching potential applicants in the last month or so, but this isn't real a surprise. These things always happen in raiding (Gorefiend in HFC says hello).

The problem with ToS is the difficulty curve is pretty absurd. Realistically all the bosses sans Sisters (who isn't that hard, and easier since the owl change) are all relatively the same difficulty. Sisters being a very slight step up, in my opinion anyways. Mistress is just leagues ahead of these bosses and is a real rude awakening to guilds that mostly breezed through the first five. HFC was similar in this regard although it had the luxury of the ring helping people get kills a lot quicker (ToS doesn't have this), with the Orc council boss being a slight step up.

Mistress tuning was just high, and honestly if they didn't nerf her she probably would have killed even more guilds. The problem with the boss is it has the unfortunate mechanic (much like Gorefiend) of having to evaluate/throttle DPS at times, or else you wipe. It can obviously be managed (take less fish in the first phase) or just by telling people to stop at certain points, but the point remains that this is generally frustrating design. Eels dying because you get more procs or not (as far as the last phase as well) adds another layer to this, and in my opinion isn't really fun. The last phase is unfortunately semi-reliant on RNG. Yeah, our re-kills are cleaner and faster (nerfs help with that) but I don't think people can argue that the last phase can be significantly easier or harder between pulls depending on where the whale decides to spawn, and where certain tornadoes want to spawn.

We've only been working on Avatar for several days now, and we are doing 'okay' considering we only have two Rogues. It just feels like we have to work so much harder with our composition, because it's unreasonable to field 4-5 Rogues. The boss also suffers similar fight design as Mistress, in that it can be kinda RNG. Swords spawning on the wrong people during certain overlaps in the first phase is frustrating, as is the difficulty of the last phase in regards to who gets dark marks at certain times. Personally I think the Mythic version of this boss is pretty bankrupt in regards to Mythic mechanics. The pillar mechanic is actually a pretty neat angle, but adding swords (was 7 at one time) and adding soaks (especially soaks) just makes this encounter pretty stupid.

I think it speaks volumes that a lot of really good guilds took awhile to re-clear Avatar, and some guilds never even bothered to repeat KJ after killing it the first time because of how the boss is designed. Personally I think ToS is mostly a good instance, just some of the bosses (mainly the last couple, and Mistress) are bankrupt in regards to ideas of how to be a challenging, yet fair boss. Horrible overlaps and encounter design that asks for certain classes.

[Morae]

I don't like ToS at all. If I didnt want a social hobby (as in raiding with friends) and desire to see if next raid is better, I might have already quit. I'm sure I'm not only one getting tired of ToS.

My guild cleared entire EN on mythic. We cleared ToV on mythic (eventually, technically it was still current tier when we killed helya), we cleared NH up to gul'dan, but we never got him down in time.

ToS? We are atm 4 bosses down. The three first are easy, but getting past sisters is a problem. Host is easier, but not down yet, because we can't get easily past sisters. Then there would be Sassy, which is even harder than Sisters. Honestly, I dont see us getting anywhere near trough ToS. It is rather disapointing feeling.

I'm hoping the relic thingy provides high enough buff that allows us progress easier.

[Logwyn]

Raids don't kill guilds. Guilds only die if the Guild Leaders and Offices decide to end it.

[Phookah]

Does Bruno Mars is gay?


OT: I'm sure its killed a few, just like virtually every raid

[tratra]

Itemization is killing guilds.

Never in my life I've seen an expansion like Legion. Seriously a HC raider can have the same ilvl and gear as a Mythic raider. Mythic raiders feel unappreciated.


That comes from someone that only does puging and has no interest in mythic whatsoever. I'd like mythic raiders to be ahead of the curve and be able to e.g carry me when they join my HC group. Fact is they can't really... I mean yes they'll pull their weight and a bit more dps but thats it they won't really make a difference. And I think people do feel that way and thats why they decide to go more casual. Maybe blizzard(activision) has other plans for the game, where you pay a sub, you play 2-3 days a week and the other 4 days you spend them in Destiny2... just saying.

Titanforging needs to go... Even Warforging needs to be limited to 5ilvls.

[Accendor]

No to everything you said. And I am a mythic raider.

[Deleted]

Just from a casual glance, the fact that 60-62 guilds killed Gul'dan Mythic in the first 2 months of NH, compared to 29 who have killed Kil'jaeden pretty much speaks volumes. Yes, there's a natural and noticable dip in guilds who raid during the summer period, but a dropoff of over 50% is pretty interesting IMO. And it all becomes a trickling effect, as mentioned. We're progressing just fine, we've had people rerolling rogues because there's a rogue abundance (we've been lucky that we haven't had rogues poached per se, but just leave but we know of many guilds in the >100 bracket who are just having rogues or guardian druids poached left right and center). I dread what happens after Avatar, respect to any guild who has done KJ yet really. But all guilds must meet the challenge.

Ion's comments that they won't make the final boss of Antoras as difficult as KJ was pretty interesting, too. If the aim to release the new content is when >500 guilds have cleared ToS, may be waiting a while.

[Argorwal]

Just from a casual glance, the fact that 60-62 guilds killed Gul'dan Mythic in the first 2 months of NH, compared to 29 who have killed Kil'jaeden pretty much speaks volumes. Yes, there's a natural and noticable dip in guilds who raid during the summer period, but a dropoff of over 50% is pretty interesting IMO. And it all becomes a trickling effect, as mentioned. We're progressing just fine, we've had people rerolling rogues because there's a rogue abundance (we've been lucky that we haven't had rogues poached per se, but just leave but we know of many guilds in the >100 bracket who are just having rogues or guardian druids poached left right and center). I dread what happens after Avatar, respect to any guild who has done KJ yet really. But all guilds must meet the challenge.

Ion's comments that they won't make the final boss of Antoras as difficult as KJ was pretty interesting, too. If the aim to release the new content is when >500 guilds have cleared ToS, may be waiting a while.

Also ToS is the first raid to have wowprogress track China servers, of which there are 6 kills, so a more fair comparison with NH would be 23 KJ kills.

[theburned]

We've only been working on Avatar for several days now, and we are doing 'okay' considering we only have two Rogues. It just feels like we have to work so much harder with our composition, because it's unreasonable to field 4-5 Rogues. The boss also suffers similar fight design as Mistress, in that it can be kinda RNG. Swords spawning on the wrong people during certain overlaps in the first phase is frustrating, as is the difficulty of the last phase in regards to who gets dark marks at certain times. Personally I think the Mythic version of this boss is pretty bankrupt in regards to Mythic mechanics. The pillar mechanic is actually a pretty neat angle, but adding swords (was 7 at one time) and adding soaks (especially soaks) just makes this encounter pretty stupid.

I think it speaks volumes that a lot of really good guilds took awhile to re-clear Avatar, and some guilds never even bothered to repeat KJ after killing it the first time because of how the boss is designed. Personally I think ToS is mostly a good instance, just some of the bosses (mainly the last couple, and Mistress) are bankrupt in regards to ideas of how to be a challenging, yet fair boss. Horrible overlaps and encounter design that asks for certain classes.

Fallen avatar was a great boss, and 5 rogues is not required at all, 3 is more than good enough now even, the main issued lied in tornados running over soaks, early tuning issues, the 7 blades were a bit cruel, but after the nerf the boss was a free kill for anyone with some progress on it, then they further nerfed it by 5% and people are also 5 ilvl higher now than back then.

I will agree that KJ was a horrible boss fight, constant armageddon soaks that insta wipes you if someone makes a minor mistake, on top of 5 pretty big walls each of which could wipe you by just a small mistake just to get to the last phase, which after the nerf wasnt that bad. Not to mention several dps checks throughout the encounter.

As for people not rekilling KJ is because people want a break after a raiding for a month. By now people are back and have started killing him again

Also KJ is still a 4-500 pull boss by decent guilds, compare this to NH which had 3 bosses at around 200 (2 of which were nerfed fairly early) FA was also a 400 pull boss. Its no wonder if guilds are struggling to kill them.

[Ebalina]

Fallen avatar was a great boss, and 5 rogues is not required at all, 3 is more than good enough now even, the main issued lied in tornados running over soaks, early tuning issues, the 7 blades were a bit cruel, but after the nerf the boss was a free kill for anyone with some progress on it, then they further nerfed it by 5% and people are also 5 ilvl higher now than back then.

I will agree that KJ was a horrible boss fight, constant armageddon soaks that insta wipes you if someone makes a minor mistake, on top of 5 pretty big walls each of which could wipe you by just a small mistake just to get to the last phase, which after the nerf wasnt that bad. Not to mention several dps checks throughout the encounter.

As for people not rekilling KJ is because people want a break after a raiding for a month. By now people are back and have started killing him again

Also KJ is still a 4-500 pull boss by decent guilds, compare this to NH which had 3 bosses at around 200 (2 of which were nerfed fairly early) FA was also a 400 pull boss. Its no wonder if guilds are struggling to kill them.

Nice jokes you are spewing there mate.
Saying Avatar is still fine for progression especially when the top guilds set the norm of 3-5rogues and the sheep follow and say "this is almost impossible without a certain number of classes".
Learn how human behavior works before you say something like what you said above.

What most of you seem to not understand is that the standart way of killing the boss will be to have at least 4 rogues on top of 2-3 hunters or mages.
Just because that is how the 1st couple of kills have been done.
This is what Jamesmarcus speaks about poaching rogues/guardians left and right from other guilds under yours just so you can make it easy for your self and your guild to kill the boss and forget that this atrocity even made it to live servers.

I'm not even gonna bother with KJ as this is probably the worst designed fight i've seen in my entire WoW life on all difficulty's.