How many of you are really disappointed by ToS?

[Seramore]

Well, at least you took the effort to write up two lines of very generic complaining. And you couldn't even be arsed to spell check.

2/10

How many of you are really disappointed by this thread?

implying that most posts on these forums aren't wordy shitposts

[Deleted]

On heroic and normal, it was fun. Not a favorite, but certainly better in comparison to Nighthold.

On mythic, yeesh. Akin to Nighthold, it's just so boring to progress. Even if you get to 20% on a boss, you're still more than likely to keep wiping on higher percentages since the gimmick of the fight is in play from start to finish. It's like if Garrosh had Malice for the entire fight, except for maybe the intermissions.

I'm seriously considering to quit mythic raiding if this is the overarching theme of Antorus as well. If I happen to want the mount from mythic or something, I'd rather just buy a boost and not have to deal with several months of slow, uninteresting progress.

[Sithalos]

I haven't gotten bored of a raid this quick in quite a while. Mediocre boss fights, and overused mechanics.

Better not see a single soak in Antorus, or the next expansion.

[Socialhealer]

It's the first raid in a long time where I've enjoyed heroic more than mythic, because mythic is just the heroic fight and then somebody pressed the "add more aids" button(rather than particularly interesting mythic mechanics). And the final boss is trash even on heroic, which doesn't help. There's also still some clarity issues with some abilities, awful camera angles/distance and shit hitboxes.

exactly, it's filled with annoying punishing mechanics that you deal with by bringing the specs that can just cheese them, a.k.a immunities which is great for those specs and for everyone else? get carried LUL.

[Deleted]

Speaking as a tank, most bosses were far too simplistic and boring. The damage is more focused on being physical so from that aspect it's a lot better than Nighthold, some of the fights such as Maiden and Avatar are at least a bit fun but the rest are fairly meh, same old same old. Might have become a bit spoiled from mytic plus which actually gives me excitement and where I can push my limits. Tanking in raids is rather dull in comparison.

Not that DPS would be any better, ever since I picked up tanking in WoD I haven't been able to get past looking up and testing the rotation of a dps spec before feeling like I'm about to fall asleep. Even my Warlock which I mained over 6 years straight feels dull in comparison, then again the Legion changes to the class doesn't really help me recognize it either.

[Seramore]

Speaking as a tank, most bosses were far too simplistic and boring. The damage is more focused on being physical so from that aspect it's a lot better than Nighthold, some of the fights such as Maiden and Avatar are at least a bit fun but the rest are fairly meh, same old same old. Might have become a bit spoiled from mytic plus which actually gives me excitement and where I can push my limits. Tanking in raids is rather dull in comparison.

Not that DPS would be any better, ever since I picked up tanking in WoD I haven't been able to get past looking up and testing the rotation of a dps spec before feeling like I'm about to fall asleep. Even my Warlock which I mained over 6 years straight feels dull in comparison, then again the Legion changes to the class doesn't really help me recognize it either.

I feel like that has more to do with raid tank design rather than raid design as a whole. It seems like in most situations, you don't really have to do anything as crazy as you used to do in prior expansions as a tank. It seems less mechanic based and more active mitigation/rotation based now.

[Dracodraco]

Avatar's the first boss I've been genuinely frustrated with. There's just some things that you literally can't "outplay", which isn't fun. Daggers and tornados are the freaking worst.

Daggers specifically because they make you do something Ion said they never wanted to make the "difficulty" of a boss - fighting the environment due to bad camera angles etc; with the field of view available, it's impossible to orient where every single dagger is going (especially with people moving during) at once, because they simply spawn in 3 different parts of the arena and you can, at best, be watching 2 at once. If you had the purple line that the actual target gets to orient themselves by, this would be a lot more "fair" - there's something to be said for people soaking beams getting it, but that CAN be handled through proper calls and healers that are aware of the situation, so that's more skill related. But I shouldn't be getting hit in the back by a dagger from a melee that's stood on the other side of the room just because I don't have eyes in the back. That's stupid.

Tornados, there's just no way to "outplay" them occasionally. If you're soaking a meteor, and a tornado comes towards you, occasionally you'll be able to dip in and out, or edge the tornado so you can soak and make it out without a debuff - but other times, that's simply not an option and it just flat out tramples you. A meteor 1.2M hit + a tornado debuff ticking for 1.6M with sear going on at 400K+ every 2 seconds is almost impossible to "outplay" for the healers, specifically because they ALREADY have to be maintaining 2M HPS to keep the raid "stable". Extra healing to spend on another 800K DTPS because a tornado trampled is hard to find late in the fight.

That doesn't even touch on how brutal dark marks are without immunity-cheesing. When the general tactic is to either soak first 2 then suicide/immune or even soak first set then suicide/immune for the rest of the fight, something's freaking wrong with the tuning. How were you ever ment to do the overlap with third marks? They go out at the exact same time as meteors, which requires at least 6 people to soak them, while sear is pounding. I have no doubt that it theoretically COULD be done (4x soakers+2x tanks leaves 3x debuffs and 11 people to soak, so 3-4 people for each) but the time spent airborne etc will just straight up kill you - and the damage going out is crazy.

Idunno, this is mostly a rant - but that boss is so stupid. There shouldn't be mechanics that you simply can't outplay on a boss that late in the game. RNG shouldn't dictate whether you get to live or die. At the very least let people stood on a meteor spawn be immune to the damage from the tornado debuff; Don't even need to remove the debuff itself, but the fucking 3M damage within .5 seconds is just asinine.

[Socialhealer]

^ more immunties will fix it.

[Argorwal]

Basically every difficult Tier the forums explode with how its all "artificial difficulty" or "stupid mechanics" or the raid is "not fun" or "boring" all in an attempt to somehow reconcile that they tuned it much harder and their guild isn't up for the increased challenge.

At the same time they'll pine for the old days and super hard fights (which have nothing on modern mythic bosses).

In 2 expansions both NH and ToS are going to be remembered fondly for their difficulty.

[Logwyn]

I'm bored of it already.

[khalltusk]

Only done LFR, but the raid art/sound etc look pretty good. Sadly for me the old legion/green designs don't do it for me. I prefer the ulduar/titan style and the old black rock dungeon style to this.

Mechanic wise I can't really comment on due to LFR being very easy.

[borisshayo]

Well, at least you took the effort to write up two lines of very generic complaining. And you couldn't even be arsed to spell check.

2/10

How many of you are really disappointed by this thread?

Are all of your 28000 posts on this trash heap of a forum just you coming to daddy Blizzard's defense whenever someone dares criticize them? Don't you have anything better to do? Pathetic.

[Celestraza]

I honestly don't understand the crying in this thread.
So far on average ToS is an 8 for me and I like the raid quite a bit.
Heroic is irrelevant imho because the raid is properly tuned to 20 players and half the abilities are disabled.

Goroth M: 5/10 (the usual tunnel, tank and spank boss, nothing special)
Inquis M: 8/10 (not bad, not super, just a normal new encounter though I do like how better performance allows higher uptime upstairs)
Harjatan M: 7/10 (not bad, not super, just a regular encounter with nothing going on really)
Sisters M: 9/10 (amazing fight on mythic, love it)
Host M: 7/10 (interesting encounter, feels like there was more in there though and something got cut out)
Mistress M: 10/10 (best encounter together with Helya and Star Augur so far in legion)
Maiden M: 9/10 (it's not a super interesting fight but has a really high comedy value like Star Augur mythic)

Edit:
In honesty I did not like heroic though. That was just bloodlust and tunnel/zerg dps.
Stil don't know what some of them bosses do on heroic. Except KJ, actually need to pay attention there.

[Aggrophobic]

I honestly don't understand the crying in this thread.
So far on average ToS is an 8 for me and I like the raid quite a bit.
Heroic is irrelevant imho because the raid is properly tuned to 20 players and half the abilities are disabled.

Goroth M: 5/10 (the usual tunnel, tank and spank boss, nothing special)
Inquis M: 8/10 (not bad, not super, just a normal new encounter though I do like how better performance allows higher uptime upstairs)
Harjatan M: 7/10 (not bad, not super, just a regular encounter with nothing going on really)
Sisters M: 9/10 (amazing fight on mythic, love it)
Mistress M: 10/10 (best encounter together with Helya and Star Augur so far in legion)
Maiden M: 9/10 (it's not a super interesting fight but has a really high comedy value like Star Augur mythic)

Odd, I'd give it a solid 2/10 and thats just becuase they managed to use more than one color palette in this raid.

[Tradu]

Avatar's the first boss I've been genuinely frustrated with. There's just some things that you literally can't "outplay", which isn't fun. Daggers and tornados are the freaking worst.

Daggers specifically because they make you do something Ion said they never wanted to make the "difficulty" of a boss - fighting the environment due to bad camera angles etc; with the field of view available, it's impossible to orient where every single dagger is going (especially with people moving during) at once, because they simply spawn in 3 different parts of the arena and you can, at best, be watching 2 at once. If you had the purple line that the actual target gets to orient themselves by, this would be a lot more "fair" - there's something to be said for people soaking beams getting it, but that CAN be handled through proper calls and healers that are aware of the situation, so that's more skill related. But I shouldn't be getting hit in the back by a dagger from a melee that's stood on the other side of the room just because I don't have eyes in the back. That's stupid.

Tornados, there's just no way to "outplay" them occasionally. If you're soaking a meteor, and a tornado comes towards you, occasionally you'll be able to dip in and out, or edge the tornado so you can soak and make it out without a debuff - but other times, that's simply not an option and it just flat out tramples you. A meteor 1.2M hit + a tornado debuff ticking for 1.6M with sear going on at 400K+ every 2 seconds is almost impossible to "outplay" for the healers, specifically because they ALREADY have to be maintaining 2M HPS to keep the raid "stable". Extra healing to spend on another 800K DTPS because a tornado trampled is hard to find late in the fight.

That doesn't even touch on how brutal dark marks are without immunity-cheesing. When the general tactic is to either soak first 2 then suicide/immune or even soak first set then suicide/immune for the rest of the fight, something's freaking wrong with the tuning. How were you ever ment to do the overlap with third marks? They go out at the exact same time as meteors, which requires at least 6 people to soak them, while sear is pounding. I have no doubt that it theoretically COULD be done (4x soakers+2x tanks leaves 3x debuffs and 11 people to soak, so 3-4 people for each) but the time spent airborne etc will just straight up kill you - and the damage going out is crazy.

Idunno, this is mostly a rant - but that boss is so stupid. There shouldn't be mechanics that you simply can't outplay on a boss that late in the game. RNG shouldn't dictate whether you get to live or die. At the very least let people stood on a meteor spawn be immune to the damage from the tornado debuff; Don't even need to remove the debuff itself, but the fucking 3M damage within .5 seconds is just asinine.

Also daggers on Avatar have some fucked targetting. Get targetted by the one in the back across the room as melee? Good fucking luck putting it somewhere where nobody will get hit, and as you said, it's not like other people can properly tell where the dagger is going unless they're stood right next to it either. Also as melee the camera in the 2nd phase is terrible. You have a huge boss covering your entire screen and somehow have to spin it constantly to see tornadoes. Then there's the issue you mentioned where tornadoes go straight through meteors as the meteors are landing, which just seems like bullshit.

[Ophenia]

As a casual now, this raid looks un-interesting at best. Only Maiden seems interesting skill-wise, everything else just has basic spells to avoid/soak/kill, with really few original mechanics. This raid looks like a glorified LFR

[satimy]

KJ is the only fight I like, everything else is trash

[Tradu]

I honestly don't understand the crying in this thread.
So far on average ToS is an 8 for me and I like the raid quite a bit.
Heroic is irrelevant imho because the raid is properly tuned to 20 players and half the abilities are disabled.

Goroth M: 5/10 (the usual tunnel, tank and spank boss, nothing special)
Inquis M: 8/10 (not bad, not super, just a normal new encounter though I do like how better performance allows higher uptime upstairs)
Harjatan M: 7/10 (not bad, not super, just a regular encounter with nothing going on really)
Sisters M: 9/10 (amazing fight on mythic, love it)
Host M: 7/10 (interesting encounter, feels like there was more in there though and something got cut out)
Mistress M: 10/10 (best encounter together with Helya and Star Augur so far in legion)
Maiden M: 9/10 (it's not a super interesting fight but has a really high comedy value like Star Augur mythic)

Edit:
In honesty I did not like heroic though. That was just bloodlust and tunnel/zerg dps.
Stil don't know what some of them bosses do on heroic. Except KJ, actually need to pay attention there.

Agreed on Goroth, pretty average fight.
Inquisition... no clue why you rate this so highly, I'd put it in the "meh" tier along with Goroth, barely even has a mythic mechanic.
Harjatan is just another "meh" fight.
Sisters is okay in terms of mechanics, but the visuals are atrocious in terms of clarity(as well as the camera and hitbox)
Agreed on Host, it's an okay fight with some interesting ideas, but I feel it missed a lot of potential.
I'd put Mistress at maybe 8/10 if it wasn't for the green puddles reducing your hit chance for absolutely no reason, which is just super frustrating as melee(because they spawn under you a lot of the time), and the mythic bufferfish mechanic is pretty uninteresting.
I think Maiden is the best fight in the instance, probably same rating as you gave it. Simple mechanics, simple concept but also punishing for getting it wrong. I do think it would've been a better fight if the punishment for mistakes was an individual 1shot rather than raidwide, or making it somewhat recoverable at least(or even just making it a "reverse orb", as in reducing your output if you fuck up). The DPS check is also quite disappointing, should've been much tougher(as in, there should actually be a DPS check)
Avatar is an okay fight(and the mythic additions make perfect sense), it just requires too much class stacking and as Dracodraco mentioned, you're essentially fighting the camera, which is shit. Also maybe a little too punishing, but that's debateable.
KJ(can only speak for heroic so far, although mythic looks like more of the same) is just garbage. It's a fight full of a stupid amount of "soak this or wipe immediately" as well as having 2 intermissions that should just be deleted and never talked about again. The first intermission you can basically go afk, and as a DPS there's nothing to hit, which makes it extremely easy(and boring). The 2nd... the "fog of war" mechanic just frustrating/annoying, not interesting.

[ONCHEhap]

it's an okay raid,but seeing all that is coming with 7.3 I just started to accept the Broken shore and ToS as a filler patch/raid for argus.as such,it fills its role perfectly

[Dilemma90]

I actually enjoy it.

A lot of people talking about heroic so i'll say heroic ToS is SO much smoother than Nighthold. If they removed the Desolate trash, ToS would be really nice.

I love how the duegon changes from cave to space, the underground part (mistress) is awesome.

Felt like first 3 bosses were even easier than NH first 3.



Mythic Goroth - hard first encounter. Have to figure out the flow of destroying pillars and leaving pillars up. Decent amount of healing, and soaking required.

DI - Ok fight, it sort of fun pug.

Harajtan - for our guild was 10x harder than DI (25+ wipes vs 3) but the fight is pretty boring. Basically a tank and spank. super telegraph

Sisters really help me excell at my play (Resto druid) After all the wipes we had on her, i really felt like I was min/maxing my character correctly. Trying to manage a full raid of hots and cool downs felt exciting.

Desolate. Never really like this boss during progression for if you didn't play both sides, it would be become confusing on how to excute it correctly. Now that it's on farm, I enjoy it (I heal top)

Mistress - Pretty tough, a lot of our lazy raiders are focusing us over 220 wipes now (Sad I know) We had the opporunity to kill her at around 120 but getting through phase 1 is putting our guild to sleep.

I haven't done M last 3 bosses so i have no opinion.

I enjoyed progressing on Heroic KJ but hated the night phase. Felt like it ruin the fight.

In terms of difficultly it goes


ToV > NH > TOS > En