The Fate of Xe'ra (Spoilers)

[Zohrvos]

People.... please....

Naaru are sentient, energy based lifeforms, either comprised of light or shadow. They are not "The Light". This is evidenced by Velen saying. "The light does not die with the Prime Naaru." Just like you, some of the people in the Vindicar had similar thoughts, which Velen quickly corrected. The Light is by and large used as a force of good, though there are exceptions as we well know, Xe'ras forceful attempt at control over Illidan, and the Scarlet Crusade.

Shadow, by contrast is by and large used as a force of evil and corruption, as is Fel, though there are also exceptions. Warlocks, Demon hunters, and Shadow Priests harnessing the power for good. PLEASE NOTICE, however.... that it is by HARNESSING this power, while resisting its corrupting influence, rather than EMBRACING it, that allows these powers to be used as a force for good. This is the opposite of the light. Titans were great champions of the light, as are the Silver Hand. Both groups are more or less universally recognized as being on team good guy. It has never been the light itself exerting a corruptive influence, though Fel and Shadow are by their very nature corruptive.

If anyone here is trying to make the argument that Fel, Shadow, and Light, are all on an even ground as far as moral influence is concerned, the lore and history of the WOW universe simply does not support that. While each certainly has the capability for good or evil, historic usage of each of these powers speaks for itself.

Furthermore, anyone thinking Illidan is deep down a good guy needs to take a stroll through black temple, and remember that he called the shots there. There is only so much retconning that can go on....

[Deleted]

It's been morally relativistic since at the very least WC3. Just like the real world. Frankly, i find stories with clearly defined "Good" and "Evil" silly, since such things cannot realistically exist. It's always a matter of perspective and circumstances.

If Blizzard goes on to push the Light being just as bad as the Void, you end up with "Evil" and "Evil" which is hardly any better.

[Zulkhan]

Wasn't the Scarlet Crusade simply bad, because they were corrupted by their leader, who was also a dreadlord? The Argent Dawn is still "good".

Balnazzar manipulated the crusaders' fears and paranoia but they weren't corrupted. Hence why they were still Light users rather than meddling with demonic magic.

It's becoming this more and more. And I am not enjoying it.

Classic WoW was grey enough. So it was WC3 to an extent. And even the WC1-2 period got greyer vibes through the novels.

Neither MoP nor WoD went much in the way or moral relativism, if I recall.

Eh, I wouldn't say that. The rise of Garrosh's regime was a blatant reflection of what occurred in Germany during the post Great War period. WoD is basically about Garrosh taking Kil'jaeden's place as master manipulator. Garrosh himself is a very Arthas-like character, a strikingly flawed character filled with nothing but good intentions eventually falling to darkness and his inner demons thanks to the pressure of circumstances.

Garrosh's arc, well written? Eeeeh. I think we'll need to agree to disagree here, about that and some other things.

It wasn't perfect for sure but it's definitely better than most things Blizzard tried out. The real flaw is the excessive amount of external material (novels, short-stories, comics) on which a near half of the arc has been shoved in.

[huth]

The Void isn't the Void Lords, either. Those are the guys trying to bend people to their side. Not the Void itself.

You're making the same mistake you're complaining about.

Titans are not champions of the Light. They're champions of Order. Sargeras is now the Champion of Disorder. They were also perfectly fine with having all life on Azeroth exterminated if we don't fit their designs. Not exactly unquestionably good guys.

Edith sez: Hum, this post got kinda lost. Can't even remember what i was responding too.

[huth]

If Blizzard goes on to push the Light being just as bad as the Void, you end up with "Evil" and "Evil" which is hardly any better.

Well, at the same time they're implying the Void might not be quite as bad as it has been presented up till now.

[Zulkhan]

If Blizzard goes on to push the Light being just as bad as the Void, you end up with "Evil" and "Evil" which is hardly any better.

I don't think they want to tell us "the Light is evil". Light and Void still fit precise characteristics and from those characteristics you can define one or the other to be "good" or "bad". At most, they may want to discredit the existence of absolute, unquestionable "good". And that's honestly a good thing, as the "age of mortals" would otherwise turn into the "age of Naaru and their lackeys". A story where relatable individuals can still make independent choices is more interesting for sure.

[OIS]

Balnazzar manipulated the crusaders' fears and paranoia but they weren't corrupted. Hence why they were still Light users rather than meddling with demonic magic.

Didn't he kill them all and raised them as undead at some point?

[alt-ithist]

So Xe'ra tried to cure illidan of his fel corruption and he kills her for her effort. As a healthcare worker I can sympathize with poor Xe'ra, I often have patients that want to bite my head off while I'm trying to help them. When they are in a better state of mind tho they become very grateful. As a player however, that was a really good twist and I'm very happy that Hollydan is never going to happen. Now excuse me while I watch this a couple more times.

[Zulkhan]

Didn't he kill them all and raised them as undead at some point?

Well yes, he eventually did but that didn't happen until Cataclysm.

Guess the crusade was way too ruined and screwed up at that point, playing subtle would have probably been a waste a time.

[chrisisvacant]

So Xe'ra tried to cure illidan of his fel corruption and he kills her for her effort. As a healthcare worker I can sympathize with poor Xe'ra, I often have patients that want to bite my head off while I'm trying to help them. When they are in a better state of mind tho they become very grateful. As a player however, that was a really good twist and I'm very happy that Hollydan is never going to happen. Now excuse me while I watch this a couple more times.

LOL

/10char

[Deleted]

u guys realize there are alternative universes out there dont u? Hollidan may be a thing if Garrosh2 opens a new portal

[Zulkhan]

u guys realize there are alternative universes out there dont u? Hollidan may be a thing if Garrosh2 opens a new portal

Who's that?

[Deleted]

Who's that?

I wager no particular character for now. Someone who also uses timetravel for something like Garrosh did. Incidentally, the Caverns of Time dungeons are way underused for all the potential they have!

[KrakHed]

Well, at the same time they're implying the Void might not be quite as bad as it has been presented up till now.

Well, yeah. They've repeated in places that it's a necessary force in the world. Saying both the Light and Void are evil is ridiculous. We've seen deeply Void-aligned beings before, ones that weren't immediately hostile. We've seen Locus-Walker. We've seen the Mantid. Those Amorphic Cognitors on Draenor are also a good example.

They all seem to hold some dispassionate intellectual curiosity about things, and they tend to value strength and utility. There's an obvious theme here.

Even at their most benevolent, the Void doesn't give a damn about morality. The Void doesn't worship intangible ideals. While the RPG is non-canon, I believe many of the themes were carried over. The Cult of Forgotten Shadow and the Church of the Holy Light shared many of their virtues, with one major difference. The Shadow's virtues were all about practical benefit rather than doing good.

The thing we've seen in Light-users is that their power is weakened by doubt. Doubt in their righteousness, doubt they'll succeed, doubt in the action they're taking. So, wouldn't the strongest Light-wielders be those who doubted themselves least? Those who never hesitated or had second-thoughts, who never had to consider another's point of view to be potentially more valid than their own?

[anaxie]

I wager no particular character for now. Someone who also uses timetravel for something like Garrosh did. Incidentally, the Caverns of Time dungeons are way underused for all the potential they have!

The bronze no longer have their ancient power

[Zulkhan]

I wager no particular character for now. Someone who also uses timetravel for something like Garrosh did. Incidentally, the Caverns of Time dungeons are way underused for all the potential they have!

Who knows, maybe it's an alternate Garrosh who came from an universe where he actually killed Thrall in the Nagrand duel and renamed himself Garrosh2 TheRevenge.

[Deleted]

Well, yeah. They've repeated in places that it's a necessary force in the world. Saying both the Light and Void are evil is ridiculous. We've seen deeply Void-aligned beings before, ones that weren't immediately hostile. We've seen Locus-Walker. We've seen the Mantid. Those Amorphic Cognitors on Draenor are also a good example.

They all seem to hold some dispassionate intellectual curiosity about things, and they tend to value strength and utility. There's an obvious theme here.

Even at their most benevolent, the Void doesn't give a damn about morality. The Void doesn't worship intangible ideals. While the RPG is non-canon, I believe many of the themes were carried over. The Cult of Forgotten Shadow and the Church of the Holy Light shared many of their virtues, with one major difference. The Shadow's virtues were all about practical benefit rather than doing good.

The thing we've seen in Light-users is that their power is weakened by doubt. Doubt in their righteousness, doubt they'll succeed, doubt in the action they're taking. So, wouldn't the strongest Light-wielders be those who doubted themselves least? Those who never hesitated or had second-thoughts, who never had to consider another's point of view to be potentially more valid than their own?

We did end up killing those Mantids, to be fair. Not the best example.

The bronze no longer have their ancient power

And yet, we got an entire expansion about time travel. At the bare minimun, the ones on this world lost theirs; there's an infinite number of other Azeroths out there.

Who knows, maybe it's an alternate Garrosh who came from an universe where he actually killed Thrall in the Nagrand duel and renamed himself Garrosh2 TheRevenge.

Lawl! XD Garrosh.2, Iron Horde Harder!

[anaxie]

We did end up killing those Mantids, to be fair. Not the best example.



And yet, we got an entire expansion about time travel. At the bare minimun, the ones on this world lost theirs; there's an infinite number of other Azeroths out there.



Lawl! XD Garrosh.2, Iron Horde Harder!

Thousands of epoch stones were used to make WoD happen. Maybe know what you are talking about before you have an opinion

[Deleted]

Thousands of epoch stones were used to make WoD happen. Maybe know what you are talking about before you have an opinion

Because there are no other magical McGuffins anymore. Ever.

Right.

You know, my opinion is coming to be that you're kind of a jerk and maybe not worth talking to.

[KrakHed]

We did end up killing those Mantids, to be fair. Not the best example.

I never said they were good. But they gave an example of what they valued. For them, it wasn't purely strength. They clearly had social values like loyalty and earning strength properly, given how they resented those who had been genetically enhanced before returning from a swarm. If they only valued strength, they could just sign up with the Titans. The thing is, the Mantid also resented being coddled and once overthrew a leader for being too kind to her children and trying to spare them from the swarm.

The ideal of the Mantid is a society and environment that forces them to grow stronger, learn more, and generally adapt or perish. They fight against the Sha of Fear because that will merely lead to their ruin, rather than creating the Darwinian hellhole they crave.