The Fate of Xe'ra (Spoilers)

[Zulkhan]

It could also just be a reflection of luminescence (which is a position I had earlier in the thread) - the timing of its onset and fading seems to me to correspond to her rebirth and destruction in the short window of the cutscene.

I'm pretty confident that's the actual case.

To be fair Tralyon could have been being influenced but not outright controlled, he feels this warm presence in this mind helping him, guiding his actions, nudging him in certain directions, letting him 'know' he's doing the right thing yada yada, and then Illidan destroys it and that comfort is just suddenly gone, he would be outright pissed and afraid.

Not saying that is what happened, you could be right and the glow in Tralyon's eyes was just a reflection, but it could be interesting to learn if the windchimes do in fact leave a mark on at least some of their followers that may not be outright control, but not be exactly passive either.

Well, we surely know Naaru can influence people's emotions for the better but a visual representation of that is a precedent we don't have. It could be, for all we know. I still find unlikely that the hypothetical influence and the eye glowing are strictly related but that's just me.

[Stormdash]

I like how alleria and illidan roll their eyes at turalyon groveling on his knees before Xera. I am not worthy! Illidan did that paladin a favor

Her gossip text seemed pretty impressed by Illidan's pawah.

[Magnagarde]

Turalyon wasn't possessed. He was blindly faithful. The Light helped him through his entire life, which is why he has all reason not to mistrust it. He is a paladin and Xe'ra is the PN, so he will obviously draw power from the being.

Xe'ra is a source of holy power. Put a mage next to a source of arcane power and the same would happen. In example, all the different varieties of high elves we've got in the lore(ie eyes shining blue due to arcane, yellow due to the light and green due to the fel).

[elaina]

Damn windchime had it coming. I hope the shadow priest dagger comments on this scene somehow.

This made me laugh... I need that in my game

[KrakHed]

Well, we surely know Naaru can influence people's emotions for the better but a visual representation of that is a precedent we don't have. It could be, for all we know. I still find unlikely that the hypothetical influence and the eye glowing are strictly related but that's just me.

The glow is clearly emphasized. There are closeups of his eyes. I don't think people drawing a connection are mistaken, even if it's not literal. When Xe'ra was reborn, his eyes reflected her Light. When she died, that Light left him. Not a complicated metaphor. I could also leave off with one of my own.

He was blindly faithful.

We all know the price of staring into the sun, or having any other bright Light shined into your eyes.

It's quite possible that Turalyon's behavior was influenced by Xe'ra, that many doubts of his may have been put at ease. Alleria's imprisonment seems to be an odd instance. She was clearly let out the very second Xe'ra was gone, and it's fairly clear Turalyon never really thought she should be imprisoned either.

I'm actually pretty sure Alleria mentions her concerns that Xe'ra is going to just throw her right back in the moment she's back, while Turalyon gives her some empty words about how he's sure it's going to be just fine. Other Naaru also have no problem with studying the Void or even helping others harness it, so that's Xe'ra's own thing.

So, what's my point? Turalyon has clearly been going along with some shit he doesn't agree with at all, simply out of faith in Xe'ra and not his own convictions.

[Peacemoon]

Some thoughts:

We've already seen that wielders of the light can be evil. Scarlet Crusade is the obvious example. But even the early day Horde vs Alliance; when Paladins were Alliance only. In Vanilla-WotLK I led an Alliance RP guild on a RP-PvP which has Forsaken as kill on sight not questions asked - we were a slightly less extreme version of the crusade but still pretty out there.

Fits into the theme 'there must always be a ling king' - even though it was to control the scourge, but also to counterbalance the Light.

There was a female Draenei in a quest just before this cut scene Who me and my brother felt sounded very Scarlet Crusadish - this theme of extremism from Light followers was bubbling. She asks you to kill demons, but she says 'slaughter the unfaithful' or words to that affect.

Final thought - the big question is, is Xe'ra a rogue Naaru - a prime Naaru who became too active and controlling; where Naaru tend to be passive and watchful - or are all Naaru manipulative like this. The Naaru have not forgotten us, but maybe we should wish they would? Personally I still believe that Naaru are benevolent and embodiments of good, Draenei characters in particular would struggle with Naaru being anything less. And part of my feels sad to think of the Naaru as anything other than the peaceful creatures they were always described as. Velen himself however does say he was forced to do many things cause of the Naaru, right after the cinematic. His reaction is important - he didn't try to strike Illidan down like Turalyon - but to use the shards of the Naaru - her power, for good.

The light vs shadow thing is an interesting concept. Like order vs chaos. Authoritarianism vs anarchy. These sort of themes. I still believe (have faith? Hah!) that the Light is generally 'good' and that the two forces are not equal, but I feel the main theme here is any force of good can become extreme and dangerous - even the light. Even the Naaru.

[Deleted]

Doesn't that make everything come down to Might Makes Right, though?

it depends, Illidan was right at the end and his actions were justified even though they were wrong in many levels (Might didnt make right but it was for the good of our world) i respect the end but not the road he took, we dont know what Xe'ra would have done so at this point Might did make right, if she just sit down (lol) and explained to him it might have ended different, but no she just BAM restrain no questions asked i ll make you for reasons i wont tell, she kind of reminds me of illidan because he didnt make his reasons known to others but we know what he was thinking from the book, unless i have a book from Xe'ra's perspective i cant trust her

[Deleted]

Turalyon wasn't possessed. He was blindly faithful. The Light helped him through his entire life, which is why he has all reason not to mistrust it. He is a paladin and Xe'ra is the PN, so he will obviously draw power from the being.

Xe'ra is a source of holy power. Put a mage next to a source of arcane power and the same would happen. In example, all the different varieties of high elves we've got in the lore(ie eyes shining blue due to arcane, yellow due to the light and green due to the fel).

Blue is Frost magic, not Arcane, look at DKs. Arcane gives white eyes, look at Elisande and other Nightborne.

[RobertMugabe]

I can't really draw the conclusion of all this. It does not really show that the light is bad, but that Xe'ra was bad (Alleria complained about Xe'ra before and the whispers hurt the player) or something totally different?

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Some thoughts:

We've already seen that wielders of the light can be evil. Scarlet Crusade is the obvious example. But even the early day Horde vs Alliance; when Paladins were Alliance only. In Vanilla-WotLK I led an Alliance RP guild on a RP-PvP which has Forsaken as kill on sight not questions asked - we were a slightly less extreme version of the crusade but still pretty out there.

Wasn't the Scarlet Crusade simply bad, because they were corrupted by their leader, who was also a dreadlord? The Argent Dawn is still "good".

[Deleted]

We don't stop the Legion. We already know how the final raid ends, and whether you've read it or not, we know that Illidan sacrifices himself in some way to trap Sargeras, along with what remains of the souls of the Titans, to seal him away. Presumably forever, but given that yet another prophecy is Anduin leading the Army of Light, we know the Army of Light isn't done yet.

Were it not for Illidan, the Legion would still exist after Legion. We don't stop them - HE does.

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We already know what happens to Illidan. Datamining is a powerful tool. I recommend looking it up, unless you're trying to avoid spoilers.

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Do we know this? As far as I'm aware, X'era hasn't been leading the Army of Light against the Void Lords, so why would she be taking away the most powerful weapon against the Legion for a fight she hasn't been leading, BEFORE the fight against the Legion is even over?

Additionally, why would Turalyon be ok with Alleria delving into the Void for power, knowing full well his war is against the Void? I don't think X'era has even begun a war against the Void, or Turalyon would be spearheading the assault against it.

That said, I could be wrong. I didn't pay much attention to the Light's Heart quests.

Illidan's fate as far as I am aware doesn't disprove any of my worries. We're probably just all going to stand around the prison and weep for the loss of this great, great person. /sarcasm

Not that I expect it to ever become relevant in WoW, but I am reminded a bit of another scene like this from Blizzard: Tal Rasha and Baal.

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I can't really draw the conclusion of all this. It does not really show that the light is bad, but that Xe'ra was bad (Alleria complained about Xe'ra before and the whispers hurt the player) or something totally different?

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Wasn't the Scarlet Crusade simply bad, because they were corrupted by their leader, who was also a dreadlord? The Argent Dawn is still "good".

I'm starting to think lots of folks want the Light to be evil so there's no more difference between classes and paradigms. Me, if I wanted end-justifies-means cruelty and ruthlessness, I would play demon hunter or death knight.

[chrisisvacant]

Me, if I wanted end-justifies-means cruelty and ruthlessness, I would play demon hunter or death knight.

And you're free to do so at any time. That doesn't negate the fact that Warcraft is a story about morally grey factions hashing out their differences among threats that are not grey whatsoever. What those "not grey whatsoever" threats are is something that continues to be defined.

[Deleted]

And you're free to do so at any time. That doesn't negate the fact that Warcraft is a story about morally grey factions hashing out their differences among threats that are not grey whatsoever. What those "not grey whatsoever" threats are is something that continues to be defined.

It's becoming this more and more. And I am not enjoying it.

[chrisisvacant]

It's becoming this more and more. And I am not enjoying it.

When has it not been becoming this more and more? The very first Wacraft game depicted Orcs as mindless ravagers. We now know that that was not the case, ever.

[Deleted]

When has it not been becoming this more and more? The very first Wacraft game depicted Orcs as mindless ravagers. We now know that that was not the case, ever.

Neither MoP nor WoD went much in the way or moral relativism, if I recall.

[chrisisvacant]

Neither MoP nor WoD went much in the way or moral relativism, if I recall.

I guess that depends on how blatant you expect the relativism to look. To me, the very crux of these 2 expansions is moral relativism. Garrosh can sometimes be depicted, colloquially, as just someone who went full-bore ideological, but he had an arc and it was a well-written one, too. When you meet Garrosh in BC, he is a different man than the one who purposely takes up the mantle of Old God Incarnate.

Blizzard is not on the level of Lovecraft or Tolkien, their foremost inspirations, but they're probably aiming for a lightweight version of that. Some expansions lean heavier on the Might Is Right stuff, others lean heavier on the Ends Justify the Means stuff. But it's all moral relativism until we get to the Void Lords. And that is a big part of telling a story for 20 some odd years. We are not without the idolatry and the zealots, both "good" and "bad' ones, but the grey is what has always formed the foundation of the Warcraft story.

[huth]

Blue is Frost magic, not Arcane, look at DKs. Arcane gives white eyes, look at Elisande and other Nightborne.

Light white-blue is Arcane, darker blue is Death. All DKs have blue eyes, not just Frost-DKs.

[Deleted]

I guess that depends on how blatant you expect the relativism to look. To me, the very crux of these 2 expansions is moral relativism. Garrosh can sometimes be depicted, colloquially, as just someone who went full-bore ideological, but he had an arc and it was a well-written one, too. When you meet Garrosh in BC, he is a different man than the one who purposely takes up the mantle of Old God Incarnate.

Blizzard is not on the level of Lovecraft or Tolkien, their foremost inspirations, but they're probably aiming for a lightweight version of that. Some expansions lean heavier on the Might Is Right stuff, others lean heavier on the Ends Justify the Means stuff. But it's all moral relativism until we get to the Void Lords. And that is a big part of telling a story for 20 some odd years. We are not without the idolatry and the zealots, both "good" and "bad' ones, but the grey is what has always formed the foundation of the Warcraft story.

Garrosh's arc, well written? Eeeeh. I think we'll need to agree to disagree here, about that and some other things.

[chrisisvacant]

Garrosh's arc, well written? Eeeeh. I think we'll need to agree to disagree here, about that and some other things.

I mean, I guess. Just not sure what you're expecting from Blizzard. Do you think anything they do is well written?

[huth]

It's becoming this more and more. And I am not enjoying it.

It's been morally relativistic since at the very least WC3. Just like the real world. Frankly, i find stories with clearly defined "Good" and "Evil" silly, since such things cannot realistically exist. It's always a matter of perspective and circumstances.

[Deleted]

I mean, I guess. Just not sure what you're expecting from Blizzard. Do you think anything they do is well written?

Well, I rather like the Bridenbrad story. And the starting zone of the death knights was also very good. There's more, but listing everything is too much work for me right now, to be honest.^^ Perhaps, for me, it comes down to how grey you paint things. If everything's a muddy almost-black, it becomes difficult to care.