EU Tries to fine Poland $75 Mil. Poland sends Germany $1Trillion bill for WWII

[PL-Cibo]

Germans decimated pretty much 90% of the intelligence in Poland. All the natural leaders, all the smartest most creative people gone. You can't rebuild that in few years, it takes generations. Looking how things are I think Poland will never be able to make up for that loss.

there is no genetic reason for natural leaders, creativity and intelligence. You had generations. the germans didn't attack poland in 1990. You don't need to rebuild them. You need to train them and give them opportunities. You haven't done that, and now you lament again instead of doing something about it? begging for money again instead of building a country which can support itself?
And voting for rightwing religious nuts again instead of thinking what happened the last time? Yeah sure, it's always the fault of others, you poor victims.

[caervek]

Germany could send out bills to France, Sweden, Italy (for the Roman invasions lol) and so on. If you dig deep enough every country can be blamed for something.

I don't think Poland actually wants money from Germany, they were just making the point that Germany would not be where/what it is today had Poland and others not given it a pass on making reparations/amends for what it did in WW2. So for the EU on behalf of Germany to threaten Poland with fines for refusing to take any of the migrants the EU imported from Greece, after Poland took hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian refugees that Germany/etc didn't want anything to do with, is a bit rich.

[PL-Cibo]

Like I said, you can't actually report people for disagreeing with you, and pointing out the hypocrisy in one nations actions against another nation isn't nation bashing.

I mean let's break down what I said in the post you quoted:

Is what Germany is doing hypocritical: Yes.
Would Poland be a net contributor to the EU today if it's recovery hadn't been hampered by not getting reparations or help to rebuild post WW2: Yes.
Is Germany basically threatening to fine Poland for not taking as many of the Refugees Germany invited as Germany wants (despite having already taken hundreds of thousands of refugees over the past few years): Yes.

There were three main points to the post you quoted, each one 100% correct. You may not like them but that doesn't make them "bullshit" >.>

Is what Germany is doing hypocritical: No. why should it be? germans don't break contracts.

Would Poland be a net contributor to the EU today if it's recovery hadn't been hampered by not getting reparations or help to rebuild post WW2:
nope. They could have opposed russian rule. they could have been in on the marshalplan. They didn't. Doesn't help if their working morale, corruption, and investment works like it did in the last 30 years. Just look up the numbers. Without germany building up infrastructure there would be even less.

Is Germany basically threatening to fine Poland for not taking as many of the Refugees Germany invited as Germany wants (despite having already taken hundreds of thousands of refugees over the past few years): no. The fine is for breaking a contract. You don't subscribe a contract and then break it. well maybe in the UK?
btw taking ukrainian refugees is a boon for poland, they actually get workforce instead of the rest of europe. but well, it sounds better to say refugees instead of imigrants (which are about 1.3 mill and about 300k are war refugees... just saying)

[Pannonian]

they bore the brunt of the Ukrainian refugee surge .

Why are you lying again? You claimed this 3 times, and I asked you 3 times for your source which you couldn't give; we provided you 2 sources for 2 different years for 3 and 33 refugees and you still keep on lying. Why do you love lying so much?

Or is 33 refugees the brunt of the surge?

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Is what Germany is doing hypocritical: No. why should it be? germans don't break contracts.

Would Poland be a net contributor to the EU today if it's recovery hadn't been hampered by not getting reparations or help to rebuild post WW2:
nope. They could have opposed russian rule. they could have been in on the marshalplan. They didn't. Doesn't help if their working morale, corruption, and investment works like it did in the last 30 years. Just look up the numbers. Without germany building up infrastructure there would be even less.

Is Germany basically threatening to fine Poland for not taking as many of the Refugees Germany invited as Germany wants (despite having already taken hundreds of thousands of refugees over the past few years): no. The fine is for breaking a contract. You don't subscribe a contract and then break it. well maybe in the UK?
btw taking ukrainian refugees is a boon for poland, they actually get workforce instead of the rest of europe. but well, it sounds better to say refugees instead of imigrants (which are about 1.3 mill and about 300k are war refugees... just saying)

Don't get me wrong, but this number gets tossed around all the time with no one providing any sources for it. Can you link a source for the 300k refugees? I would really love to know, i just cannot find any.

[Deleted]

Well yes, but Churchill wasn't one of the architects of the EU, in fact had he been around in the time the EU was designed/created he would have been fundamentally opposed to it.

And you base this insight on what exactly?

Churchill has been calling for the "United States of Europe".

[FAILoZOFF]

The difference is that EU will win.

keep dreaming, hope dies last ;]

[caervek]

And you base this insight on what exactly?

Churchill has been calling for the "United States of Europe".

Churchill was calling for a union between France and Germany so they could have what the USA/UK/USSR had. He was opposed to the UK being any part of it and had he been alive in 1993 he would have campaigned against it.

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Why are you lying again? You claimed this 3 times, and I asked you 3 times for your source which you couldn't give.

I gave you one of the sources at the time, you even quoted my post giving it and IIRC referenced it yourself.

Here it is again: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...genous-society

[Ravenblade]

I don't think Poland actually wants money from Germany, they were just making the point that Germany would not be where/what it is today had Poland and others not given it a pass on making reparations/amends for what it did in WW2. So for the EU on behalf of Germany to threaten Poland with fines for refusing to take any of the migrants the EU imported from Greece, after Poland took hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian refugees that Germany/etc didn't want anything to do with, is a bit rich.

It is true that Germany is quite the dominating country within the EU but there are a lot countries in the EU who are happily accepting Germany taking the blows instead of them. Reminds me of the Greece financial crisis, countries like Finland were quite the hardliners, Germany moderated a few demands and wittled them down, Greece only saw red because it was a German finance minister at the helm. I'd have liked to see their faces if it had been a Finnish finance minister instead.

It is also important to note that Poland did make concessions but we have to observe two eras here: the Eastern bloc era where they had to do it because then the DDR happened to pay all the reparations to the Sovietunion which supposedly distributed what they deemed worthy of distribution (not much). It was the DDR which also did fixate the Eastern border of Germany. After the Eastern bloc dissolved there was quite a wellspring of possible reparation demands and individual claims, Germany did create special funds but they fought off reparation demands through diplomacy and economic programmes.

Also once again, calling Ukrainian economic migrants refugees and then going back to calling them economic migrants again when it suits the situation isn't convincing anyone. This is just rhetorics. Before the migrant crisis 2015 Germany was already accepting asylum seekers, including a lot (ironically) from the former Eastern bloc and the Balkan, and processing them slowly because they could. The EU, and certainly not Germany, didn't demand of Poland to take in "hordes". When someone talks of "hordes" I am almost immediately thinking of 13 million t(err)ourists invading Mallorca but not of 7000 Syrian people coming to Poland over the course of 2 years for which the EU even compensates with money. The truth is that it is much more than just about having already done your deed, it's about keeping them Muslims, and by that extent: 7000 "potential terrorists", away from a country that tries to re-catholize its society, except these days it's mostly just reintroducing sentiments and feelings. Germany took the most, not all people wanted them including those who wouldn't outright visit their next tattoo shop for a finely carved swastika and it's not Germany "giving terrorists to their neighbours" here as some shrill populists would put it.

[caervek]

33 refugees

I find it bizarre that you would try and push such a blatantly false number, I mean if you're going to lie you may as well try and lie well to make it less obvious lol.

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Also once again, calling Ukrainian economic migrants refugees and then going back to calling them economic migrants again when it suits the situation isn't convincing anyone.

I didn't do that, I referred to the Ukrainian refugees as refugees and to the Syrian migrants (who had already found refuge in Greece and were not looking to move to a different EU country) as migrants.

[Deleted]

Churchill was calling for a union between France and Germany so they could have what the USA/UK/USSR had. He was opposed to the UK being any part of it and had he been alive in 1993 he would have campaigned against it.

In your dreams maybe. Churchill was one of the driving forces behind the creation of the Council of Europe - he was even a honorary president of it. Nowadays he is considered one of the EU's founding fathers.

https://europa.eu/european-union/sit...urchill_en.pdf

Just because a Nigel Farage is having trouble with having one of the primary British icons call for the United States of Europe (quote) doesn't mean that he didn't mean it.

[caervek]

In your dreams maybe. Churchill was one of the driving forces behind the creation of the Council of Europe - he was even a honorary president of it. Nowadays he is considered one of the EU's founding fathers.

Lol, when Churchill called for a "United States of Europe" he was speaking of a Franco-German partnership, he never wanted the British commonwealth or the UK to be a part of it. If Churchill had still been alive and an MP in 1993 when the EU came to be then he would have voted against it or at the least abstained and demanded the UK get a referendum on joining (which would have been a good idea and avoided this Brexit mess).

[Deleted]

Lol, when Churchill called for a "United States of Europe" he was speaking of a Franco-German partnership, he never wanted the British commonwealth or the UK to be a part of it. If Churchill had still been alive and an MP in 1993 when the EU came to be then he would have voted against it or at the least abstained and demanded the UK get a referendum on joining (which would have been a good idea and avoided this Brexit mess).

Suuuure, Franco-Germany is the same as the United States of Europe, hence the name

But hey, it's a moot point. Soon you're going to be out, then you can polish and optimize your history to your heart's content again. Few will bother you.

[Ravenblade]

I didn't do that, I referred to the Ukrainian refugees as refugees and to the Syrian migrants (who had already found refuge in Greece and were not looking to move to a different EU country) as migrants.

Fair enough. I didn't nail it on you but that's been the common trend the last year. Fact is that Poland accepted applicants from Ukraine (around 28k IIRC) but majority are economic migrants, a lot Ukrainians are most likely just living in Poland without applying for citizinship. They are still not refugees and certainly not a million of that. In fact of many people they are "job stealers" (quelle surprise) and xenophobic attacks against Ukrainians are common too. They are using Ukrainians in order to make themselves appear as being swamped by their Eastern neighbours and they too think lowly of them, not the least because of the past too (Volhynia).

[caervek]

Fact is that Poland accepted applicants from Ukraine (around 28k IIRC) but majority are economic migrants

Last year 1.3 million Ukrainians moved to Poland according to the FT, but only around 30% were refugees, the rest were economic migrants but that's still a lot of Refugees.

Now I do get the argument that a lot of the Ukrainian "refugees" won't actually have lost their home/family to the war and are just fleeing because they have no money/job so can't feed themselves, but you can say the exact same thing about the majority of the Syrian "refugees".

IMO it actually makes a lot more sense to send the Ukrainian refugees to a country like Poland with similar language/culture and distribute the Syrian ones around other EU countries than to send the Syrian refugees there and distribute the Ukrainian ones around other EU countries.

[Malacrass]

Now I do get the argument that a lot of the Ukrainian "refugees" won't actually have lost their home/family to the war and are just fleeing because they have no money/job so can't feed themselves, but you can say the exact same thing about the majority of the Syrian "refugees".

There is a massive difference between being invaded by a foreign power and being under constant siege by your own government. Last time I checked Poroschenko didn't use toxic gas indiscriminately against civilians. Or anyone for that matter. If you are up against your own government there is no place in the country you could safely flee too, at least not longterm and as long as Assad is in power.

Maybe the comparison would work with Afghan refugees, where the government is still somewhat intact and the threat comes from terror organisations first and foremost, but putting the situation of Ukrainian "refugees" on the same level with Syrians is just cynical.

[caervek]

There is a massive difference between being invaded by a foreign power and being under constant siege by your own government.

The Ukrainian civil war is loyalists vs rebels, the Syrian civil war is loyalists vs rebels vs Daesh. It's not that much different (and wasn't at all before Daesh got involved).

Regardless of that though, if your home is destroyed by war and you're forced to flee to another country you are by definition a refugee.

[Raakel]

IMO it actually makes a lot more sense to send the Ukrainian refugees to a country like Poland with similar language/culture and distribute the Syrian ones around other EU countries than to send the Syrian refugees there and distribute the Ukrainian ones around other EU countries.

That actually makes sense to me

Personally I'am all up for not letting people die at sea or your doorsteps but I'd much more like to have this whole refugee thing to stop completely for a period of time. The EU shouldn't try to enforce any member state to take refugees against their will although the solidarity concept should still apply. It's schizophrenic, I know. But the past three years have clearly shown that some member nations have a huge problem (mainly mentally) with that which only fuels the anti EU fire. It would be wise if people would be given the feeling to be more addressed with their concerns rather than being punished.

Clearly Polands WWII bill is just a stunt as many polish contributors in this thread already mentioned. But in a complex situation there are no simple answers.

The Syrian war needs to end, Lybia must be stabilized, human trafficing needs to be prosecuted with full force, Greek and Italy desperatly need help and I'd say measures that keep further refugees away. This whole thing can't be solved by taking in as many refugees you can, yet I have the feeling that many politicians are simply overwhelmed by the complexety of the problem.

[Malacrass]

Regardless of that though, if your home is destroyed by war and you're forced to flee to another country you are by definition a refugee.

What kind of Ukrainian is forced to move to Poland, as opposed to another area under Poroschenko, or if you are pro Russian, the annexed areas?

[Ravenblade]

Last year 1.3 million Ukrainians moved to Poland according to the FT, but only around 30% were refugees, the rest were economic migrants but that's still a lot of Refugees.

Now I do get the argument that a lot of the Ukrainian "refugees" won't actually have lost their home/family to the war and are just fleeing because they have no money/job so can't feed themselves, but you can say the exact same thing about the majority of the Syrian "refugees".

IMO it actually makes a lot more sense to send the Ukrainian refugees to a country like Poland with similar language/culture and distribute the Syrian ones around other EU countries than to send the Syrian refugees there and distribute the Ukrainian ones around other EU countries.

450,000 is still a far cry from "millions of Ukrainian refugees" though and with the Ukraine it's that people from the Western part like the Lviv region are coming as economic migrants or seasonal workers while the people from the Eastern part are fleeing to Europe from the warzones. As I said, this is not overlooked by the EU, on the contrary. However the migrant crisis revolving primarily around Mediterranean and Syrian refugees is an EU-wide issue on which most members agreed to, not just an Italian or Greek, or least of all a German one. It'd be nice seeing an end of the need to having to come to Western Europe for more positive chances for a more positive prospect of a better life but as it stands this isn't something that's going to happen tomorrow but over a long time. The EU is already working on controversial to make that happen.

Technically it is impossible to just stick with similar language or language, otherwise France and Belgium would have to take all people from North Africa and former colonies like Senegal since French is still a lingua franca there and without a doubt they already have a lot people living there with such a background. Because of this they have come up with a distribution key which already respects existing situations in several countries. If there would be no situation in the Ukraine then Poland under this government would still reject any single person coming from Syria on grounds like security risks which in populist sense is just an umbrella term which tries to neatly package half-concerns with prejudices. The Ukrainians, as disliked as they are in some parts, are a welcome shield and tool of propaganda. They are probably easier to deal with than a Syrian too who would be a complete stranger but in reality there is a social ladder of peoples. In Germany Eastern Europeans didn't have a particularly well reputation either, a lot old Nazi epithets were still used when talking about them, but since then the "brown man", or worse: "black man" has taken over that role of an arch-enemy and Eastern Europeans are suddenly comrades. I'd be surprised if it's not similar elsewhere.

Also: Refugee in its narrowed down legal sense would require having made an asylum request before that, in broader sense it's any person escaping a conflict in order to save her own or her family's lives. This request needs to be processed first in order to get the status granted which is a lot different to just migrating to a country for economic or social reasons. A lot Albanians who tried to apply for asylum in Germany got almost all rejected but it's mostly due to belief that having to live in squalid conditions is equal to fleeing from an armed conflict.

[caervek]

What kind of Ukrainian is forced to move to Poland, as opposed to another area under Poroschenko, or if you are pro Russian, the annexed areas?

Generally speaking an eastern Ukrainian whose home has been destroyed by the loyalist forces. They aren't going to want to move to the west because that's where the government/people who dislike them are and there's no point moving from one part of the warzone to another. Of course you could argue they could stand and fight but then so could all the Syrians.