EU Tries to fine Poland $75 Mil. Poland sends Germany $1Trillion bill for WWII

[Mayhem]

Why improve and invest? When wealthy business leaders and politicians can use the scapegoat to line their own pockets and screw over the own population?

"I don't want change, change is bad, no change please!!!" - conservatives aka. people living in the past.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...ationality.png

I wasn't aware there are wars in Eritrea, Nigeria, Somalia (arguably), Gambia, Senegal, Mali, Pakistan or the list of other countries the migrants come from. These countries are much farther from war than Ukraine is.

Are Syrians, Iraqis and Libyans refugees of war? Most certainly. And they should be allowed access, at least until things settle down in their countries. Should A SINGLE economical migrant from the shitholes they crawled out from be allowed access under the disguise of a refugee? Absolutely not.

War is not the sole and only reason for one to be granted refugee status, but you probably know that.

So let me get thist straight, ukrainian economical migrants (are being called refugees) = good, african refugees (are being called economical migrants) = bad?

At least you are consistent in that everything you're saying is wrong.

[Acidbaron]

"I don't want change, change is bad, no change please!!!" - conservatives aka. people living in the past.

Not really accurate i identify my self on many fronts as a nationalist conservative, There's a difference between wanting to preserve older values and traditions and wanting to preserve institutes and mechanisms that benefit very few and hurt many. Not to mention one should always be critical of their government regardless if they aren't or are part of the people you voted into power.

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I can't find the report ATM, but I do recall reading one. It was from some agency that had like 20k job openings available for migrants, and only a few dozens were filled after months since posting. I think it was linked to one of the German motor companies.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu...-idUSKBN13A22F Here's a readily available article.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...ationality.png

I wasn't aware there are wars in Eritrea, Nigeria, Somalia (arguably), Gambia, Senegal, Mali, Pakistan or the list of other countries the migrants come from. These countries are much farther from war than Ukraine is.

Are Syrians, Iraqis and Libyans refugees of war? Most certainly. And they should be allowed access, at least until things settle down in their countries. Should A SINGLE economical migrant from the shitholes they crawled out from be allowed access under the disguise of a refugee? Absolutely not. If they can pass the standard procedures of immigration into EU countries, sure, you're welcome, but the ones illegally tresspassing into EU borders should be dealt with as every other tresspasser.

You are aware the economic immigrants are mostly send back? You are aware that is one of the big points of human right activists why they attack european governments on?
You are aware that's the reason why people do not want to request asylum or immigration status in most nations and all want to travel to the UK where they can remain mostly illegally?

[Mayhem]

Not really accurate i identify my self on many fronts as a nationalist conservative, There's a difference between wanting to preserve older values and traditions and wanting to preserve institutes and mechanisms that benefit very few and hurt many. Not to mention one should always be critical of their government regardless if they aren't or are part of the people you voted into power.

Those values and traditions usually are part of preserving institutes and mechanisms though, not all of them, but you weren't too specific here. Being critical of your government is needed, sadly the ones that scream the loudest usually are only critical of their opponents.

[Mormolyce]

From the article:

Critics of the government say they are talking about reparations to divert attention from their nationalistic agenda.

...

The current conservative Law and Justice party has faced criticism for introducing reforms that have been accused of eroding democracy in Poland, and the European Union launched legal action in July due to fears the reforms could restrict judicial independence.

In case you were dumb enough to fall for the line they're pushing.

[Airlick]

War is not the sole and only reason for one to be granted refugee status, but you probably know that.

So let me get thist straight, ukrainian economical migrants (are being called refugees) = good, african refugees (are being called economical migrants) = bad?

At least you are consistent in that everything you're saying is wrong.

But we can agree to one term. If we agree that the grand majority of migrants from Africa (and plenty from Middle East) are refugees, then Ukrainians are also refugees. If Ukrainians are economic migrants, then so are the african migrants. I've already gone over the differences between Ukrainians and Africans in one of my posts, so I'd rather not repeat myself. The most notable differences are that Ukrainians mostly come legally, they actually work, don't leech welfare (which they wouldn't find in Poland anyway) and don't stir up trouble.

You are aware the economic immigrants are mostly send back? You are aware that is one of the big points of human right activists why they attack european governments on?
You are aware that's the reason why people do not want to request asylum or immigration status in most nations and all want to travel to the UK where they can remain mostly illegally?

The problem is how the EU deals with them. Very often they lie about their age or claim they've lost their documents, and European countries are unfortunate to be restricted by humane laws that force them to often view such cases in the migrant's favour. They know they'll be provided for for the time being, and they have a chance to be allowed to stay. And if they are, they are very likely to not take up a job, but leech on welfare. It's a win-win situation for them, and while EU countries can potentially benefit from them if they happen to start working, the reality is that this mostly doesn't happen.

Do you also not see a problem with such a phenomenom as the Calais jungle? Any self-respecting country would clear it out in a few hours. Water cannons are a thing.

[Crispin]

I am proud of Europe. We came a long way if the worst we can do to each other right now is to hand out bills that no one pays.

QFT! People who think we're better of without the EU, seriously need to take a look at european history. A non-optimal EU is preferable to wars, besides we all know that in a Europe without the EU, it'll be the usual suspects who'd be handing out punches "UK, France and Germany" EU countries will never achieve parity, and neither should they, it's as good as it'll ever get and better than it ever was.

[Sarevokcz]

The current state of Ukraine and for example Syria are hardly the same....not sure what you are arguing tbh.

If Poland wants to take people in from Ukraine that's on them because Ukraine isn't in full civil war right now, we can go right now to Ukraine and not be in any danger of being blown up by the Russians, Syrian government, iraqi government, ISIS or US government. This can't be said the same about Syria or Iraq.

the eastern ukraine isnt really in a good shape, cities are ruined just like in syria, its just not the focus of western media, it wouldnt paint them in a good picture, considering west wanted to get Ukraine, but Krym and eastern Ukraine pretty much shows how west failed.

also there is the fact the vast majority of migrants ARENT from syria at all or the other fact, where those migrants travel all the way to western europe instead of being glad they get out of warzone and settle in any of their neighbouring countries with similar culture, neither of which makes them refugees no matter what some people say.

And like I said, quotas arent working ANYWAY, all migrants we admitted and even flew them in oursleves, who got rent free flats, free language and culture education, were still unhappy and were gone in less than a month, some of them were caught in germany, sent back to us and they rather returned back to those "warzones" than to live here, in a free flat. From outside perspective, it must suck in our country if people rather go back to their "wars" amirite? and you want to send those poor souls to us? you wouldnt do that to them, would you?

[ati87]

I can't find the report ATM, but I do recall reading one. It was from some agency that had like 20k job openings available for migrants, and only a few dozens were filled after months since posting. I think it was linked to one of the German motor companies.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu...-idUSKBN13A22F Here's a readily available article.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...ationality.png

I wasn't aware there are wars in Eritrea, Nigeria, Somalia (arguably), Gambia, Senegal, Mali, Pakistan or the list of other countries the migrants come from. These countries are much farther from war than Ukraine is.

Are Syrians, Iraqis and Libyans refugees of war? Most certainly. And they should be allowed access, at least until things settle down in their countries. Should A SINGLE economical migrant from the shitholes they crawled out from be allowed access under the disguise of a refugee? Absolutely not. If they can pass the standard procedures of immigration into EU countries, sure, you're welcome, but the ones illegally tresspassing into EU borders should be dealt with as every other tresspasser.



Unless you've gone into the warzone, there was no danger of getting blown up by Russians or Ukrainians even when the war was at its peak. That doesn't mean it didn't affect the whole country. Economy is a thing, and ukrainian economy has gone down the drain because of the war, and it was in a terrible state in the first place. So Ukrainians are refugees of war in the sense that they are running from a country whos economy was ruined by war, not that they are running from bombs. One could argue that this year's Syrian refugees aren't really running from war, either, since the war is pretty much over. ISIS is getting mopped up on all fronts and the war doesn't really affect the grand majority of the population anymore, in the sense that they are in danger of dying. The economic damage was obviously much worse in Syria than in Ukraine.

''in a sense''

You are mixing in you're major assumptions with pure ignorance in how the law works.

To keep it simpel, we as European countries, signed treaties in which kind of immigration we accept and which kind we don't really have to accept.

Not going to argue you're points further since it's borderline painful to respond to ignorance

[Moon-Man]

The difference is that EU will win.

The REAL difference is that EU is falling apart.

[ati87]

The REAL difference is that EU is falling apart.

only in the mind of deporables and in their mind everything is falling apart...but that's the result of their own paranoia and fear

[Acidbaron]

But we can agree to one term. If we agree that the grand majority of migrants from Africa (and plenty from Middle East) are refugees, then Ukrainians are also refugees. If Ukrainians are economic migrants, then so are the african migrants. I've already gone over the differences between Ukrainians and Africans in one of my posts, so I'd rather not repeat myself. The most notable differences are that Ukrainians mostly come legally, they actually work, don't leech welfare (which they wouldn't find in Poland anyway) and don't stir up trouble.



The problem is how the EU deals with them. Very often they lie about their age or claim they've lost their documents, and European countries are unfortunate to be restricted by humane laws that force them to often view such cases in the migrant's favour. They know they'll be provided for for the time being, and they have a chance to be allowed to stay. And if they are, they are very likely to not take up a job, but leech on welfare. It's a win-win situation for them, and while EU countries can potentially benefit from them if they happen to start working, the reality is that this mostly doesn't happen.

Do you also not see a problem with such a phenomenom as the Calais jungle? Any self-respecting country would clear it out in a few hours. Water cannons are a thing.

Clearing out the jungle means things simply get moved elsewhere, it is no solution. It is not even a bandaid to the situation. The reality is that those people want to go to the UK for several reasons and the UK is unwilling to do anything about this besides cry like a toddler about immigrants, their sovereignty and demanding everyone to hold them at bay. There are steps they could have taken in the past to reduce this before this became a thing and with that i do not mean taking in more immigrants.

We are indeed bound by humane laws and that is not a negative, we look down on nations that do not uphold certain standards we should expect at least the same from our own nations and criticize them if they fail to deliver.

The reason why the Jungle of Calias or now recently in Brussels again camps are forming is that these people do not want asylum in that nation, they want it elsewhere, you have high pregnant women and kids in those places but they refuse to do so, either out of fear of being send back to Italy and Greece or whatever nation they first registered in, sometimes that fear is founded often it is totally not, this is due to there still being no european wide policy on how to handle this situation and countries like Poland, Hungary and whatever xenophobic ran government are making this even harder, hence the whole debacle taking place now between the EU and those nations. But most of the fear comes from the human smugglers, traffickers that are allowed to abuse this uncertainty of the EU and refugees to instill fear of them and make sure their brothers in crime inside Europe are also paid off when these people attempt to buy illegal passports.

If their is uncertainty about their age and origin, they aren't fully processed that's why it takes forever and that's why at the start of this you had these massive camps what are now much less, yes they can still lie and get past. The notion that these people are coming here simply for welfare and not to works mostly points out that inside Europe we do not have enough mechanisms in place to enable people and control people collecting welfare, what is a result of decades long red or red'ish governments that refused to do something about the unemployed since it would create a stigma on them, this is not an issue with refugees or immigrants this is an issue with unemployment and welfare in general and such i cannot find it correct to use refugees or immigrants for this, since it is an issue before these people came and all they do is point out the flaws within the system, since we have even less tolerance for those different from us.

So them to start working we first need to tackle the issue of enabling people to work again here in general and the second is we need to create a frame for them to learn the language fast and tie benefits from the government to certain integration standards, such as knowing the language and so forth. It is correct in this case that certain EU laws against discrimination creates conflicts, such as we experienced although the requirement to learn dutch to obtain housing runs a bit more deeper and complexer then just about immigrants and about the effective language barrier we have in this nation. But in that point you are correct that certain things are problematic.


But even as a conservative i find it incorrect to merely look at these people as leeches, i am of opinion that even if i look now at immigrants of third and fourth generation, since that's when generally these unemployment rates start to become really high, that the plans of integration and i'll be honest here they were simply none-existent.
That failed integration into the west in general from these demographics is both a fault of the government and the people, not one group exclusively. But in short the first generations that come here do work and has always been the case and i am also not in favor to applaud or encourage government policies based on anekdotes.

[Astalnar]

Yes the precedent of Angala Merkel sending in the troops to Poland to overturn a democratic government there, not a good luck but very much something I'm sure Eurocrats would love to do.

After all if there is anything the EU hates its popular sovereignty.

Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Mutti!

Considering that Eurosceptics have been saying about it for decades, since before EU actually formed, it's going to be any day now for sure.

Eventually, Eurosceptics will be proven right. The more EU squirms and tigthenes the grip around its member states, the more those same states will try and run away from it.

[announced]

Go Poland, standing up to the 4th Reich!

No one should be forced to take immigrants, instead other countries could be offered incentives if they choose to take some, but it shouldn't be mandatory.

[Acidbaron]

Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Mutti!



Eventually, Eurosceptics will be proven right. The more EU squirms and tigthenes the grip around its member states, the more those same states will try and run away from it.

Going to regret answering a post of one who is drunk on populism.

The vast majority of the Eurosceptical parties inside the EU government are critical of Europe but all have one thing in common they do not want to leave, there is only a very small group that actually wants that and they are all very xenophobic and protectionist in nature. What says enough about their goals and aims, this is also me leaving out critical parts that those people are in support of both Putin and Assad, openly so. What says enough who their interest they really have close at heart.

[Mayhem]

But we can agree to one term. If we agree that the grand majority of migrants from Africa (and plenty from Middle East) are refugees, then Ukrainians are also refugees. If Ukrainians are economic migrants, then so are the african migrants. I've already gone over the differences between Ukrainians and Africans in one of my posts, so I'd rather not repeat myself. The most notable differences are that Ukrainians mostly come legally, they actually work, don't leech welfare (which they wouldn't find in Poland anyway) and don't stir up trouble.

No we can't agree on something to mean something else just so you are able to form an argument, how old are you 6?

[XDurionX]

Seriously people who think it's fair to punish Poland over illegal immigrants are fuckin retarded. Next country that wants to join EU should sign a clause about potentially having to take thousands of immigrants.

Noone's fining poland over illegal immigrants. They're fined over legal immigrants. You know, the treaties they signed and all. Right of asylum is a human right. The EU enforces human rights in it's member states. They all knew that before they joined.

[namecraft]

give the polish a bank that creates money, that's fair.

[Sarevokcz]

Noone's fining poland over illegal immigrants. They're fined over legal immigrants. You know, the treaties they signed and all. Right of asylum is a human right. The EU enforces human rights in it's member states. They all knew that before they joined.

actually, no. migrants are supposed to request for asylum in the first EU country they step into, not a specific one of their request.

and the quotas werent even unanimous vote, so no, Poland didnt sign anything regarding them.

and the point is moot anyway, poland took migrants, just not from middle east but from ukraine

[XDurionX]

actually, no. migrants are supposed to request for asylum in the first EU country they step into, not a specific one of their request.

and the quotas werent even unanimous vote, so no, Poland didnt sign anything regarding them.

and the point is moot anyway, poland took migrants, just not from middle east but from ukraine

The quotas aren't the point, they're a temporary measure to mitigate the stress of a temporary increase. The legislation existed decades before anyone thought of somthing like this "crisis", this is nothing new. Poland knew what they were signing up to, and that belonging to the EU is not a one way street. They take all the EU money, they bear EU responsibilities. They will give in, or they will pay ever increasing fines until they do. No other country has taken more from the EU than Poland, and i really hope that most poles see through this childish maneuvre. There's increasing resistance against the right wing government that leads them back into the past and destroys their democracy.

[Sarevokcz]

The quotas aren't the point, they're a temporary measure to mitigate the stress of a temporary increase. The legislation existed decades before anyone thought of somthing like this "crisis", this is nothing new. Poland knew what they were signing up to, and that belonging to the EU is not a one way street. They take all the EU money, they bear EU responsibilities. They will give in, or they will pay ever increasing fines until they do. No other country has taken more from the EU than Poland, and i really hope that most poles see through this childish maneuvre. There's increasing resistance against the right wing government that leads them back into the past and destroys their democracy.

no, thats not what Dublin Regulation does, its pretty much "the first Member State where finger prints are stored or an asylum claim is lodged is responsible for a person's asylum claim." just because germany and few others decided not to follow the regulation doesnt mean others have to pay for it