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  1. #1
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    Russia is suspected of meddling in Catalonia vote

    I've been reading bits and pieces here and there about this possibility for a few weeks. Today, El Pais (spanish newspaper) published this article: https://politica.elpais.com/politica...26_670033.html
    The talk about the distribution of fake news in a bid to destabilize western democracies.

    1: fake news is published in disobedientmedia (a site which published other fake news about Clinton in the past)
    2: the article is shared in reddit: the_donald, wikiliks or conspiracy
    3: activists and disobedientmedia employees share it in twitter mentioning assagne

    I'm quoting this piece in English on the same topic from Yahoo News. It focuses much more on Assagne himself, instead of the Kremlin interests. But that's what I first found when searching for this in English
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/will-barc...222118737.html
    BARCELONA — Here in Spain’s second-largest city, long a magnet for American tourists, life on the surface appears as festive as ever, from the beach terraces laden with pitchers of sangria to the crowds browsing the kiosks on the pedestrian median of La Rambla, which almost immediately returned to normal after last month’s terror attack. But the tension brewing just below the surface of Catalonia, the wealthy northeast region of 7.5 million of which Barcelona is capital, burst into the open Wednesday morning with a series of raids by national police on the regional ministry of finance, leading to at least a dozen arrests of senior officials, followed by hours of flag-waving marches and demonstrations.

    At issue is a wave of Catalan nationalism culminating in a referendum on secession, scheduled for Oct. 1. The regional government has said that if the vote passes, it is prepared to declare its independence within 48 hours. The Spanish government in Madrid, headed by Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, has declared the referendum illegal and unconstitutional — and is doing everything it can to prevent it. “The vote,” Rajoy vows, “will never take place.”

    Regional unrest is not new to Spain. The Euskadi Ta Askatasuna (or ETA, the acronym for Basque Homeland and Liberty), the militant arm of the Basque separatist movement in Spain’s north, has fought for independence with terror bombings that have killed hundreds. But the Catalan situation is unprecedented, in part because it appears to have significant support from outside the country, notably from WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, who has been promoting the cause of Catalan independence with a series of incendiary tweets and posts.

    Assange is widely suspected of fronting for Russia, which as part of its campaign to destabilize Western democracies has supported secessionist movements from Scotland to Texas. Barcelona and the surrounding resort towns along the Costa Brava are favorite vacation and second-home spots for wealthy Russians, including alleged mafia heads reportedly linked to the Kremlin. Some of them are facing criminal charges by the national government — charges that might not survive a transition to a new, Russia-friendly Catalan national government. “The situation is confusing and highly combustible,” says one longtime resident who declined to be quoted by name, given the intensity of feeling on the issue.

    Appearing before the Catalan government building in Barcelona’s main square, Carles Puigdemont, president of Catalonia, denounced the arrests. “The [national] government has crossed a red line separating it from totalitarian regimes and has become a democratic shame.” The autonomous government of Catalonia, he added, had effectively been shut down that morning by Madrid.

    Catalonia, which has its own distinctive culture and language, was never fully assimilated into Spain, itself a patchwork of 17 autonomous regions. But the primary grievance now is economic. Comprising 16 percent of the country’s population, the region contributes more than 19 percent of Spain’s GDP, and while it enjoys substantial autonomy, Catalans often complain they don’t get enough in return.

    Events have played out at a dizzying pace. The act establishing the referendum was rammed through the Catalan Parliament just two weeks ago, during a tense 11-hour session that prompted 52 members of the three opposition parties to walk out, lamenting that the Parliament had been hijacked by separatists. The only question on the ballot will be: “Do you want Catalonia to be an independent country in the form of a republic?” A second law passed that night declared that regardless of how many voters participate, if the yes votes win on Oct. 1, a new independent country would be formed within two days.

    The latest polls show only 41 percent of Catalans favor independence, with nearly 49 percent against it. But anyone following the issue on the WikiLeaks Twitter account might imagine that tanks are rolling down the streets of Barcelona, civil war has broken out, a “Spanish Tiananmen Square” may be imminent — and the late dictator Francisco Franco has returned from the grave to crush Catalonia’s aspirations. On September 11 — National Catalonia Day — when a million demonstrators filled the streets waving Catalan flags and calling for independence, Assange tweeted, “If today is a guide, on Oct. 1 Europe will birth a new 7.5m nation or civil war.”

    “Catalonia will decide its own future on October 1,” declared Catalan President Puigdemont. “No one has the authority or the power to seize our right to decide.”

    The government in Madrid loudly disagreed: Rajoy lambasted the move as “an intolerable act of disobedience” and the Constitutional Court in Madrid promptly suspended both Catalan laws. Last Friday, Rajoy thundered into Barcelona, threatening to dissolve the considerable autonomy the region already enjoys. He backed the threat by taking over the Catalan government finances, including payrolls for the local police — a maneuver that some here believe will make holding the referendum impossible.

    But Puigdemont and the separatist faction of the Catalan government have vowed to carry on, and in recent days the game of cat and mouse has escalated. Puigdemont called upon the 948 mayors across Catalonia to make preparations to hold the vote; Rajoy warned that they’d be criminally prosecuted, though that didn’t stop the 700-plus officials who heeded Puigdemont’s request to ready the voting booths from rallying in Barcelona on Saturday, promising, “We will vote!”

    Puigdemont — who faces criminal charges of disobedience, abuse of power and misusing public funds — called upon citizens to pressure the remaining mayors to join the movement. Some have reportedly received death threats. The Catalan government sent out letters to 55,000 voters across the region, commanding them to man the voting booths; Rajoy’s government ordered the national postal service not to deliver the letters, then raided private courier services who’d taken over delivery. The national government shut down Catalan sites promoting the vote and independence; the Catalan government put them up again via proxies — a clever move publicized by Assange and Russia’s English-language news outlet RT.

    In dozens of tweets, Assange dramatically kept up the drumbeat, recounting the raids on pro-secession newspapers and the plants suspected of printing ballots and posters and the confiscated ballot boxes. He didn’t care about independence, Assange tweeted, but he supported Catalonia’s right to decide — apparently even if it went against the Constitution.

    The details for a vision of a free and independent Catalonia are vague. Financial advisers have warned that secession would ruin the regional economy, and the move would automatically mean cutting ties to the European Union. Catalonia would have to reapply to the EU, a process that typically takes years. Banks and corporations have threatened to move elsewhere. Catalonia’s Moody’s bond rating puts it on a par with Bangladesh, and nobody seems quite sure what currency Catalonia would use.

    Despite the uncertainties and the constant cries of illegality from Madrid, Puigdemont and the Catalan Parliament, where separatists hold a narrow majority, have stoked the concept for months.

    They’ve traveled to countries from Denmark to Morocco, without much to show for it. Several weeks ago they hired lobbyists — paying the U.S. firm SGR $60,000 to press the secession cause on Capitol Hill. Their biggest success was with California Republican Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, known as “Putin’s favorite congressman,” who recently met with Assange in his London Embassy hideout. Rohrabacher has said he supports self-determination for Catalonia, though that doesn’t reflect official U.S. policy. Given that Spain is a close ally of the U.S. and a member of NATO, the Catalan separatist cause has achieved little traction in the international community.

    Wednesday morning, however, Barcelona awoke to news that the finance ministry had been seized, with at least 12 high-ranking officials and consultants arrested — reportedly accused of diverting public funds to support the referendum. Even though it was later revealed that the order didn’t come from Rajoy, who was reportedly unaware until the news broke, he quickly became the object of Catalan anger.

    “Spain’s government acts like a banana monarchy — embarrassing for Europe!” Assange tweeted, and also stirred the pot by asking if Rajoy should resign and warning Catalans that Madrid might cut all internet access — a claim that appears to be entirely without basis.

    Within two hours, thousands of locals gathered in front of the uptown ministry, waving flags, singing the Catalan anthem and chanting “Democracy!” “We will vote!” and “Out with the occupation forces!” — reminiscent of the 1970s chants in the protests against Franco’s rule.

    A block away, on Passeig de Gràcia, life went on as normal. Shoppers walked by clutching bags from clothing store Zara and Japanese tourists lined up in front of buildings whose façades boast the fantastical swirls and swoops of architect Antoni Gaudi.

    “The separatists are just orchestrating a theater here, looking for international outrage,” says one who grew up here, but who’s against secession. “Nothing will change here.” And he supports Rajoy’s actions. “Madrid is simply applying the rule of law — like any other country would.”

    Given Spain’s constitutional prohibition on unilateral secession — specifically its requirement that all Spaniards vote on the matter if one region wants to secede — Rajoy appears legally in the right. He’s backed by the king, the Spanish government and even his main opposition in the Spanish Parliament — the Socialists — as well as some anti-secession Catalan politicians. He has the authority to declare an emergency and deploy troops, moves he’s promised to avoid. The police have allowed demonstrations to take place unimpeded. While some liken Rajoy to Turkey’s autocratic president Erdogan, others liken him to Lincoln, desperately striving to preserve the union.

    But some citizens are bothered by the spectacle of a national government squelching a region’s right to self-determination. A recent El Pais poll showed that a majority of Catalans believed that while the current referendum appears to be illegal, Madrid’s actions are only tipping the balance for the separatists. “When you have the government raiding printing offices, confiscating information about a vote, it looks oppressive,” says one local investment broker.

    And back in London, Julian Assange continues his Free Catalonia marathon, tapping out more than 80 provocative tweets in recent days, using archival photos — showing police in riot gear (which currently they aren’t wearing) dragging off a protester and tanks (which currently aren’t in use here). His dramatic updates have led to media speculation that Assange is actually fronting for Russia, a charge he denies.

    But Russia’s interest in Catalonia is clear. The Russian news agency RT has been assiduously covering the Catalan crisis. Catalonia sent a delegate for the last two years to a forum in Moscow run by a Kremlin-supported organization, the Anti-Globalization Movement of Russia. The delegate, José Enrique Folch, promised that if Catalonia became independent, it would accept Russia’s annexation of Crimea and drop sanctions against Moscow. The only international politicians who have taken up the Catalan cause appear to be Hungary’s Prime Minister Viktor Orbán and Venezuela’s dictatorial president Nicolás Maduro, both of whom are close to Putin.

    When contacted yesterday, Folch, who works outside Barcelona as an international economist, and whose party isn’t in the Parliament, was equivocal about Catalonia’s future foreign policy, saying its stance on Crimea and sanctions would depend on whether Russia recognized an independent Catalonia. He remained hopeful that Catalonia would stage its referendum on October 1 and become a free republic two days later. The actions of Madrid were “absolutely criminal, absolutely unacceptable,” he said. His voice lowered. “We’re being persecuted.” It was a good thing I’d called when I did, he added. “We’re not sure how long we can talk about the matter freely.”
    Last edited by mmoc003aca7d8e; 2017-09-22 at 10:41 PM.

  2. #2
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    So anytime the public wants something that the ruling class doesn't want, its all a Russian ploy. Amazing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    So anytime the public wants something that the ruling class doesn't want, its all a Russian ploy. Amazing.
    Its not peoples free will, its the Russians!

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    So anytime the public wants something that the ruling class doesn't want, its all a Russian ploy. Amazing.
    "If some people do something obviously Russia was completely unrelated!"

  5. #5
    The Insane Kujako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeones View Post
    "If some people do something obviously Russia was completely unrelated!"
    As Putin once said, "those could be anyones solders in Russian uniforms taking over Crimea".
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.

    -Kujako-

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    I have a feeling that the only way some people will believe that Putin or Russia had anything to do with this information war, is if Putin himself comes out and admits it. Anything besides that has an air of plausible deniability.
    Nah, if he says that it's a conspiracy of Hillary and Obama.

  7. #7
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Yeah Russia's nonsense is about to make them a Target of others, even some of their current allies, see because when it is exposed what they are doing anywhere, people will start to suspect it everywhere.

    Just like it happened here in the U.S and Russia has a much more devious track record. My guess is Putin is going to need to be the next overthrown.
    Milli Vanilli, Bigger than Elvis

  8. #8
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    I have a feeling that the only way some people will believe that Putin or Russia had anything to do with this information war, is if Putin himself comes out and admits it. Anything besides that has an air of plausible deniability.
    Well, it would be more believable if it didn't seem like a deliberate jingoist defense against change and challenges to the elite classes power structure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Well, it would be more believable if it didn't seem like a deliberate jingoist defense against change and challenges to the elite classes power structure.
    No it's just you refusing to evaluate information available to you and giving the emotional response "Russia didn't make me do anything".

    All the Trump supporters on my facebook feed were spamming shit like that a while back. It was just as ignorant and irrelevant then as it is now.

  10. #10
    I am Murloc!
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    well i don't expect Russia to go like: "you got us, we won't do it again we promise"

    of course they are going to influence the world geopolitical chessboard to their advantage, every time, every where. It's not gonna stop, it's the reality we live in now.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    So anytime the public wants something that the ruling class doesn't want, its all a Russian ploy. Amazing.
    It's not all a ploy, and nowhere is it suggested that much: only that the public opinion is being heavily manipulated. Which is nothing new in Catalonia, given that the people that turned a cultural sentiment into a sovereign struggle are also the "ruling class". Regional tumult is a feature of the country, and has been used for political and economical gains since the start of the democracy.
    What is interesting this time (as opposed to the many other independent movements Spain has) is the international interest, and that Russia is also involved (but is not necessarily the main culprit).

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Well, it would be more believable if it didn't seem like a deliberate jingoist defense against change and challenges to the elite classes power structure.
    The elite class in Catalonia are the ones hell bent on declaring independence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    There are no 2 species that are 100% identical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Redditor
    can you leftist twits just fucking admit that quantum mechanics has fuck all to do with thermodynamics, that shit is just a pose?

  13. #13
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garnier Fructis View Post
    The elite class in Catalonia are the ones hell bent on declaring independence.
    Yes, a new class wants independence. I wonder why every-time someone is threatened we need to resurrect the Cold War to justify inaction?
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  14. #14
    We have some of the russian disinformation squad active here, as we all know.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Yes, a new class wants independence. I wonder why every-time someone is threatened we need to resurrect the Cold War to justify inaction?
    A new elite class. Which is an interesting detail to inexplicably drop given the focus on class struggle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    There are no 2 species that are 100% identical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Redditor
    can you leftist twits just fucking admit that quantum mechanics has fuck all to do with thermodynamics, that shit is just a pose?

  16. #16
    It is pretty ironic that countries like Britain and Spain who were masters of using divide and rule to subjugate native populations are now turning around and doing that to themselves.

  17. #17
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garnier Fructis View Post
    A new elite class. Which is an interesting detail to inexplicably drop given the focus on class struggle.
    Well if conflicts are between new groups wanting a piece of the pie and a defending group, then yes, the defending group will go to ANY length to defend its applecart. I'd think you'd be familiar with the concept.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Well if conflicts are between new groups wanting a piece of the pie and a defending group, then yes, the defending group will go to ANY length to defend its applecart. I'd think you'd be familiar with the concept.
    Which is completely tangential to my point, which is that it's not the class struggle between the people and the elites that you cast it as.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    There are no 2 species that are 100% identical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Redditor
    can you leftist twits just fucking admit that quantum mechanics has fuck all to do with thermodynamics, that shit is just a pose?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    well i don't expect Russia to go like: "you got us, we won't do it again we promise"

    of course they are going to influence the world geopolitical chessboard to their advantage, every time, every where. It's not gonna stop, it's the reality we live in now.
    Now?

    This kind of stuff has been going on since the dawn of humanity. Persians couldn't beat the Greeks in the Persian wars. So in the end it basically started to find ways to manipulate the Greek states covertly. Sure many of them were going to go to war eventually. But little nudge here, whisper there and oh a Fleet for Sparta. Rome were masters of this with client states who sooner or later had a leader fall into place who suddenly decided that being a client was just too good a job that he'd put the state directly in the empire. European powers did it to each other and all over the world after fall of Rome until 1945 when it was essentially USA and USSR doing it.

    Russia under Putin just returned to the chess table after Yeltsin got drunk, turned tanks on his own parliament and had Russia stumbling off outback trying to flirt with the other countries that pulled the rug from under USSR.

  20. #20
    Immortal Zandalarian Paladin's Avatar
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    Oh, give me a break. I don't care if Russia has a hand in that.

    I do care that the government cracks down on something legal by using literal force.
    Google Diversity Memo
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    [...] we have an intolerance for ideas and evidence that don’t fit a certain ideology. I’m also not saying that we should restrict people to certain gender roles; I’m advocating for quite the opposite: treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group (tribalism)..

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