Where did the Iron Horde go wrong?

[Zulkhan]

Kairoz himself was pretty fucking deranged as well. Wasn't his real goal world domination or some shit?

Yeah, he didn't seem much stable either. Wrathion fucking sucks at choosing allies.

But charismatic orcs failed at leading time after time.
Blackhand - a puppet who was created for his role failed.
Orgrim - a free willed one also more or less failed.
And last but not least Thrall - the redeemer also failed to convey his ideology to orcs.

And you can say that garrosh, especially after SoO was worse choice than any of them.

Not if the charismatic orc is manipulated as well. Blackhand was doing "fine" as long Gul'dan didn't fall into coma.

I would say Garrosh could have worked decently as "rallier" but he was definitely too unstable and unpredictable to be properly manipulated. In fact I think that, right after creating the Iron Horde on AU Draenor, a new orc among them should have been found, someone more stable and like-minded, to do the same trick on all the other Hordes. Once you got someone like that, Garrosh should have been killed for good. However, Kairoz failed way too soon by getting himself killed by a fucking Garrosh with handcuffs.

[JustRob]

Orgrim siezing control from Blackhand wasn't really a bad thing, since it freed the orcs from direct control from Gul'dan. Gul'dan was the one who screwed the pooch by abandoning the Horde with the clans under his command to seek the Tomb of Sargeras. The Horde was a stone's throw away from conquering Lordaeron City, then Orgrim suddenly lost half his standing forces.

Doomhammer had himself to blame for that, not Gul'dan. Gul'dan was in a coma and completely harmless, and what did Doomhammer do when he woke up? He let him go free to do whatever the fuck he wanted. If he had dealt with Gul'dan as he should have, he might not have lost everything.

[cparle87]

Doomhammer had himself to blame for that, not Gul'dan. Gul'dan was in a coma and completely harmless, and what did Doomhammer do when he woke up? He let him go free to do whatever the fuck he wanted. If he had dealt with Gul'dan as he should have, he might not have lost everything.

True, but that would've had consequences for the future. Remember how we had to defend Medivh while he opened the Dark Portal. Though in this case the things bouncing into my head are mostly positive. No Gul'dan means no first generation death knights like Teron Gorefiend. No Expedition to Draenor. No Ner'zhul going mad with power and blowing up Draenor into Outland, then becoming the first Lich King.

Then again, it's entirely possible the modern day Horde and Alliance wouldn't exist if all that happened. Alliance splinters after Old Horde is beaten, New Horde maybe never comes to be. And when the Legion eventually did return would there be enough strength to fight them?

[JustRob]

It's pointless to speculate what if character x didn't do this or that. Plenty of possibilities. All I'm saying is that not killing Gul'dan or at the very least keeping him locked up very tightly was a crucial leadership mistake that cost Doomhammer the war. Had he not made that mistake, he might have won and there might not even be an Alliance today.

[Aleksej89]

Iron Horde attacked azeroth way too early.
IH should have first conquered every bit of land, slavery and technology available on Draenor, including the bird people and the plant people and the ogres.

But orcs, in their traditional stupid behavior, decided to charge in and attack (azeroth) way before they were truly ready.
So azeroth armies counter-attacked and a few legendary heroes managed to sneak their way into Draenor and used the unconquered parts to stage a comeback.

Plus it did not help that the iron orcs were heavily in-fighting between themselves, which is yet another stupid traditional trait they have.
AND they let gul'dan live AGAIN... wtf garrosh, why not tell your daddy to insta kill AU gul'dan since you refuse demonic magic anyway

[JustRob]

Knowing Garrosh, in his arrogance he wanted Gul'dan to live and see how succesful the Iron Horde would be without his influence. Ironically once again Gul'dan caused the Iron Horde's ultimate undoing.

[Zulkhan]

What? There was no relevant in-fighting among the orcish clans, especially after they've been united. And Gul'dan was allowed to live because he was the main battery to power the Dark Portal. Garrosh may have had all the cool tech by the portal to get to Azeroth still worked through the means at Gul'dan's unique disposal.

[JustRob]

In that case they should have built a better portal that didn't need Gul'dan. Kairoz could have helped with this if Garrosh had kept him alive for a bit longer. Killing Kairoz meant they probably relied solely on Gul'dan's expertise to build their portal. Not exactly the smartest thing to do.

[Zulkhan]

In that case they should have built a better portal that didn't need Gul'dan. Kairoz could have helped with this if Garrosh had kept him alive for a bit longer. Killing Kairoz meant they probably relied solely on Gul'dan's expertise to build their portal. Not exactly the smartest thing to do.

It could be but that's mostly speculation. We know the hourglass' fragment held a connection with its origin place and that's how Garrosh connected AU Draenor to MU Azeroth but when it comes to the gateway itself all we know is that the Dark Portal worked through Fel magic. Chances are that even with Kairoz' shenanigans, Gul'dan was still needed (kind of mirroring Orgrim's situation where the warlock could work on a contingency plan by his right of being a necessary tool for his enemies).

[Tabrotar]

Orgrim siezing control from Blackhand wasn't really a bad thing, since it freed the orcs from direct control from Gul'dan. Gul'dan was the one who screwed the pooch by abandoning the Horde with the clans under his command to seek the Tomb of Sargeras. The Horde was a stone's throw away from conquering Lordaeron City, then Orgrim suddenly lost half his standing forces.

But that was what i said orcs have this nice habbit of screwing themself over as you pointed out.

[JustRob]

It could be but that's mostly speculation. We know the hourglass' fragment held a connection with its origin place and that's how Garrosh connected AU Draenor to MU Azeroth but when it comes to the gateway itself all we know is that the Dark Portal worked through Fel magic. Chances are that even with Kairoz' shenanigans, Gul'dan was still needed (kind of mirroring Orgrim's situation where the warlock could work on a contingency plan by his right of being a necessary tool for his enemies).

In that case they should have kept Gul'dan on closer watch, and defended the very entrance of the portal with all of their might. That was the key to their entire plan, and letting a few powerful people slip through is game over.

[Kallisto]

Then again, it's entirely possible the modern day Horde and Alliance wouldn't exist if all that happened. Alliance splinters after Old Horde is beaten, New Horde maybe never comes to be. And when the Legion eventually did return would there be enough strength to fight them?

Not only possible it's guaranteed there is no Alliance if the Horde doesn't come through the portal. Genn had already set his sights on attacking Lordaeron and was just playing the waiting game building his own alliance with other human kingdoms so he could strike. Stormwind was basically like Pre WW1 US in that it was basically uninterested in the old world and the elves basically kept to themselves.

That's why we help Medivh, horde side it is because without the portal Opening the orcs are doomed to die on a dying world, this leads to both Darkspear trolls and Tauren being all but wiped out by threats against each of them. Alliance (Plus Forsaken and Blood Elves on H side) side may seem like an odd choice and does lead to many deaths, but it stops the human kingdoms going to war and wiping each other out so that when the legion does return there's a power base in the eastern continents to fight them.

[Arrashi]

It could be but that's mostly speculation. We know the hourglass' fragment held a connection with its origin place and that's how Garrosh connected AU Draenor to MU Azeroth but when it comes to the gateway itself all we know is that the Dark Portal worked through Fel magic. Chances are that even with Kairoz' shenanigans, Gul'dan was still needed (kind of mirroring Orgrim's situation where the warlock could work on a contingency plan by his right of being a necessary tool for his enemies).

I honestly assumed that they went for gul'dan/fel powered portal so they can kill some innocents to power this shit up and show how super evil iron horde is.

[Zulkhan]

In that case they should have kept Gul'dan on closer watch, and defended the very entrance of the portal with all of their might. That was the key to their entire plan, and letting a few powerful people slip through is game over.

I mean, they clearly tried. Still didn't work.

I honestly assumed that they went for gul'dan/fel powered portal so they can kill some innocents to power this shit up and show how super evil iron horde is.

To me, nothing looked evil in WoD like bombing a camp of Draenei refugees and leave only a pair of boots as lootable toy. Even though I would say the more messed up are the Blizz devs rather than the Iron Horde.

[Traveler Voltin]

they didnt kill the draenei first before invading. kill the locals first idiots.

[Camthur]

They went wrong when they didn't send enough orcs though. The pacified all of Blasted Lands one way or another, so they had plenty of time to funnel in forces. They apparently were just too stupid to have them ready at the portal.

The real reason obviously is because Blizzard wanted us to go there, not fight them here.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

The iron horde made a big mistake in their war plan.

They should had conquer all of draenor first. That way they'll also has more grom slave to use as powerful artillery units.

1. Overwhelm the blasted land and setup a powerful base of operation there including a massive dock. Star producing warships while reinforcements continues to come through.

2. Move north and proceed to conquer Ironforge and use the resource in it to build tanks and other war machines. Reinforcements would continue to come through the portal in the now heavily fortified blasted land acting as reinforcements and additional supplies.

3. Use ironstars to destroy the surface of undercut and the tunnel trapping them inside. No need to waate troops here.

4. Conquer stormwind and silvemoon while also building a second dock. With 2 docks up. The iron horde can now set sail towards pandaria and begin conquering and using it as a huge forward base against the other 2 remaining continents.

5. Make a strong navy and Control the sea. Once you control the sea, you control the war.

6. Conquer the other remaining continents.

7. The iron horde would then make tons of anti air cannons so when the Legion arrives. Most of their ships would be shot down. Swarm the broken shore with warships and ironstars alone with a few regiment of troops.

8. With the Legion defeated. The iron horde can now focus on mass producing war submarines in order to wipe the nagas out.

9. Mass produce drilling war machineswhen would allow the iron horde to reach deep underground in order to kill off the faceless ones.

10. Turn Azeroth into a iron planet and build a gigantic city size mana bomb cannon in case sargeras comes.