“It’s gonna end with concentration camps..."

[Auxora]

The US has had a Nazi party since 1930, some of them were supposed to have met Hitler, Hitler wasn't impressed.

There is the famous picture of the Nazi rally in Madison Square Garden in the 30's to show how big it got. At the time the US like much of the world was realizing that there were alternatives to the old dominant parties (Democrat and Republican in the US), so both the communist and nazi parties in the US got fairly big back in the 30's. The communist popularity even ran into the 50's. Both then very much fizzled to a tiny fraction when people realized they weren't all they were made out to be.

So although the nazi party has been around a long time technically, it's good to keep it in that context. For the past 70+ years it's been very small and at the fringes, at least until it started to become re-energized recently with the Trump and alt-right anti-immigrant nationalist movements.

[Mormolyce]

If you've got a beef with anything I've said, actually raise a point and argue it. Otherwise, I'm going to assume you have no argument and no leg to stand on.

I'll be sure to think up an evidence-based counterpoint to "you're a fucking moron" lol.

[PosPosPos]

Too bad they are like 0.0000001% of the population so none of these goals are actually realistic.

Oh, that's the new alt-right apologist spin on ~30% of the population?

Interesting white-wash there.

[Shalidor]

I qualify?

Yep.

YOu know absolutely nothing about me

I know you want to commit murder over political ideologies, unless you lied to me about that when you told me publicly you want to murder people over political ideologies. What's more, you named a specific ideology that you believed should qualify people for getting murdered. You fit the description of "alt-left." Whether or not you have a problem with what that label means is up to you.

yet you want to categorize me already? How can you even begin to try to take the high ground on me without laughing at yourself?

You categorized yourself when you said you wanted to murder US citizens because of their far-right beliefs. As for high ground, I'm not a moralist. I make appeals to rational self-interest, typically. I do have my own value judgments but I do a pretty good job of not treating my personal value judgments like they're prescriptions everyone else needs to follow or get up against the fucking block.

I understand that violence begets violence.

I kind of want to caveat that statement; violence only begets violence up to a certain point. Niccolo Machiavelli covered that pretty well in The Prince. You can in fact commit violence on such a grand scale that there is no one left out of your enemies who would oppose you over the violent actions you would have taken to destroy your enemies. This is particularly important when executing the previous members of the royal family, right down to the children, so there is no chance of a rebellion or uprising later on.

I, personally, don't want to see the world revert to that. Do you?

I understand that zealotry gets the innocent killed, which is why I hate groups like ANTIFA who on a whim paint anyone that disagrees with them as a target.

I would say that's entirely fair, but surely you've realized by now that you're guilty of literally the exact same thing? Any member of Antifa would say they're only doing exactly what you've done already. In fact, most of them would say they haven't yet gone as far as you're apparently willing to go. Or do you just want to make absolutely certain you get the right target?

But the last time Nazis ruled, they weren't stopped by tolerance and pretty words. Nor were the Soviets.

Right now, neither group rules, but one group is certainly a lot closer to ruling than the other. The alt-right is weak. They do not have, nor will they ever have, the numbers required to achieve what the Nazis did with the fall of the Weimar Republic. What they did required many many many times the number of members currently on the alt-right roster, and much of the Nazi party were battle-hardened soldiers. There are more people living in the small town I live in than the whole of the alt-right (about five thousand members) in the entire United States.

The communists, on the other hand, have completely taken over just about every State-funded university in the country. They have a massive stranglehold on the institutions that will train and educate the next generation, and peoples' values have clearly been informed by what they have learned at university. The alt-right isn't a threat. The communists are the threat.

Why no outrage at the Communists? Because this thread was about Nazis.

Not exactly. This thread was about the conflict raging between fascists and communists raging in our streets, and for whatever reason, people are acting like the Nazis are the threat, when they are literally nothing, and right next to them is the single greatest existential threat this country has faced since its founding.

Do you think I'm a fucking Communist the moment I don't include them whenever I express disgust at peoples behavior?

Like I said, I think it's up in the air whether you're a communist or not.

But alright, look at places like China, where millions upon millions have died to a Communist regime. Should we just sit here and allow something like that to spread and propagate unchallenged?

Of course not. Their rhetoric and lies need to be challenged whenever and wherever they appear. Not with violence though, not unless the conditions for self-defense are met.

Do you want to sit down with ISIS and talk to them about how bad they've been or would you prefer killing them?

If I thought I could talk IS away from trying to kill us all, I would. But neither Antifa or the alt-right are armed and have shown the willingness to commit murder on such a grand scale that IS has. If IS agents were to swarm in my town tomorrow morning, it wouldn't be because they're here to talk. We're at war with them. We're not at war with Antifa or the alt-right.

We have armies because some times, armies are needed when words no longer work. You can shrink that down in scale and realize that some times, a person infront of you will never ever listen to you and they deserve nothing less than a beating.

We have armies, ideally, for defense of the nation and its interests, not for aggressive violence, no matter how stupid Kim Jong Un sounds at any given moment. Similarly, we reserve personal violence only for personal defense against an act of aggressive violence. I will not by moved by appeals to the notion of desert.

That doesn't mean you go beat up every person that doesn't disagree with you. It means you deal with people who WANT TO FUCKING MURDER YOU IN CAMPS!
Just because some retards are mislabeling people doesn't mean we shouldn't bloody stand up against the actual people who fit that label!

I don't care if they want to put me in a camp or not. I only care if they actually have the ability to do so. If they aren't a threat to me, and this is a really key point, they can have as strong a desire to murder me as they like, so long as they can't/don't act on it.

I don't suggest we go out in mobs and lynch people. I suggest we don't sit here tolerating nor allow people to spread the disgusting ideologies of regimes that have lead to the deaths of millions, something they confess to wanting to do again. It's intolerable. It's unacceptable.

I agree. The answer, the solution you're looking for, is to argue with them, publicly. You may never change any of their minds. That doesn't matter. What matters is that you convince the unaffiliated masses. Do you know who Daryl Davis is? You should look him up. He's the leading expert on the KKK and deprogramming them. Everyone was saying that Antifa came out ahead after Charlottesville. There were only two people that I knew of at the time who disagreed, and instead said the alt-right came out ahead after Charlottesville. Those two people were Daryl Davis, and me. For the record, I didn't hear about Daryl Davis' position on this until long after I came to my own conclusions regarding Charlottesville. I'm not trying to say I have anywhere near the expertise of Daryl Davis on this subject, but I have payed attention to him in the past, and I remember his ideas.

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I'll be sure to think up an evidence-based counterpoint to "you're a fucking moron" lol.

It's an insult. No one bothers thinking up counterarguments to insults. On the other hand, I did subtly link the insult to his badly misinformed position, which I shredded. Do you take issue with my actual analysis of the points, or are you just mad that I called someone a mean name because I thought they were that mean name?

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Oh, that's the new alt-right apologist spin on ~30% of the population?

Interesting white-wash there.

The alt-right total about five thousand. The KKK are about seven thousand. Together that's roughly 12k. Both groups are hopelessly decentralized, but even if they weren't, that's nowhere near 30%, and certainly nowhere near enough to accomplish anything.

Edit: Ah. I see you link rawstory like it's evidence. Never mind. Forget I said anything. Carry on, your malady is beyond my power to draw.

[PosPosPos]

The alt-right total about five thousand. The KKK are about seven thousand. Together that's roughly 12k. Both groups are hopelessly decentralized, but even if they weren't, that's nowhere near 30%, and certainly nowhere near enough to accomplish anything.

Edit: Ah. I see you link rawstory like it's evidence. Never mind. Forget I said anything. Carry on, your malady is beyond my power to draw.

If you support Trump, a self-professed alt-right and Neo Nazi, then you belong in the same category as him.

Hence, 1/3 of the nation is already a very conservative estimate. But carry on white-washing 1/3 of the nation. It's the modus operandi of alt-righters and alt-right apologists after all.

[Shkar]

What I don't understand is why some people hold up this point about there only being around 10k of them as why they are no threat. Yes, the odds of them being able to write public policy and such are slim, but ISIS was estimated at having around 20-30k in 2014. That's not exactly a country sized group of people either, and yet many people will write off the alt-right while talking about how we need to cut off immigration to stop groups like ISIS.

[Shalidor]

If you support Trump, a self-professed alt-right

Trump has not only never professed to be a member of the alt-right, but has actually denounced them on multiple occasions and fired the one member of his cabinet that might have actually been a member of the alt-right, Steve Bannon. Who I support is irrelevant; you're making claims about reality that simply aren't true. Go ahead. Find me a single instance where Trump professed to be a member of the alt-right. Doesn't exist.

and Neo Nazi, then you belong in the same category as him.

See above.

Hence, 1/3 of the nation is already a very conservative estimate. But carry on white-washing 1/3 of the nation.

I didn't realize the population in the US was so small. Here I was thinking we had millions and millions, as opposed to only 36k.

It's the modus operandi of alt-righters and alt-right apologists after all.

Using reason on someone who has abandoned reason is like administering medicine to the dead. Do you even know what the alt-right believes? Or are you so deep into TDS that you don't even care anymore? For others reading this, this is exactly what I'm talking about when I say people are far too careless about who they go after and why.

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What I don't understand is why some people hold up this point about there only being around 10k of them as why they are no threat. Yes, the odds of them being able to write public policy and such are slim, but ISIS was estimated at having around 20-30k in 2014. That's not exactly a country sized group of people either, and yet many people will write off the alt-right while talking about how we need to cut off immigration to stop groups like ISIS.

Well, IS has demonstrated they are much more prone to commit acts of brutal murder, on a much grander scale than either Antifa or the alt-right. Of course, IS has basically had its shit kicked in by this point. I'm still kind of for putting major limits on immigration from those countries for two reasons; IS still isn't dead, and I think one of their agents has way more killing potential than any ten members of Antifa or the alt-right put together, and there are still other secular fighters over in those places that would be just as willing to kill people over here as any IS agent.

All that said, we do need to have a conversation about mosquefuls of Sunni Muslims agreeing that killing gay people is good, and nodding along in agreement when the Imam says that is the moderate position among Islam.

[Shkar]

Well, IS has demonstrated they are much more prone to commit acts of brutal murder, on a much grander scale than either Antifa or the alt-right. Of course, IS has basically had its shit kicked in by this point. I'm still kind of for putting major limits on immigration from those countries for two reasons; IS still isn't dead, and I think one of their agents has way more killing potential than any ten members of Antifa or the alt-right put together, and there are still other secular fighters over in those places that would be just as willing to kill people over here as any IS agent.

All that said, we do need to have a conversation about mosquefuls of Sunni Muslims agreeing that killing gay people is good, and nodding along in agreement when the Imam says that is the moderate position among Islam.

They may be more used to and prepared for such brutality, but many of the acts they claim credit for are being carried out by natural citizens who are following their playbook. You could make an argument that the actions and messages of the alt-right is trying to set something similar up. They don't have the numbers to fight a war or push through legislation, but simply getting some crazy guy to gun his car into a crowd of people is still a big deal. If the alt-right does end up amping up the violence further, that's how it will be done. They're not going to be burning down minority housing and planting the (ugh) Kekistan flag in the ashes. It will be exactly like the ISIS attacks in Europe.

[Very Tired]

Funny how people somehow are seeing Nazi's as such a threat that require people to go out and punch. IMO, that's being even worse than the side they are fighting against who think Muslims are going to take over and impose Sharia Law on all of us.

[Shalidor]

They may be more used to and prepared for such brutality, but many of the acts they claim credit for are being carried out by natural citizens who are following their playbook. You could make an argument that the actions and messages of the alt-right is trying to set something similar up. They don't have the numbers to fight a war or push through legislation, but simply getting some crazy guy to gun his car into a crowd of people is still a big deal. If the alt-right does end up amping up the violence further, that's how it will be done. They're not going to be burning down minority housing and planting the (ugh) Kekistan flag in the ashes. It will be exactly like the ISIS attacks in Europe.

You could make the argument, but not very well. Right now, the alt-right isn't trying to do anything more than get limits on immigration, and they have the ultimate weapon on their side in that pursuit; the truth. That's why violently shutting them down right now is not just against American values and their basic human rights, but also tactically...unsound.

Aside from the incident with the car, the alt-right hasn't killed anyone, and there is a great deal of contention surrounding the circumstances of that particular loss of life. Footage surfaced that showed other people attacking the car before it started moving (which made the people who only posted half the video look really, really bad, CNN) the fact that the arresting officers said the driver was in "fight-or-flight" mode when they arrested him, and that Heather herself was just as much a victim of the "healthy at any size" movement as she was getting hit by a car.

On the other hand, in 2016, there was a fatal stabbing of a fraternity member at UoT, by a guy wearing Antifa garb, and a week before that stabbing, there was a post on IGD about how they were going to start waging war on university frats for the rape culture that they perpetuate. I don't say this to justify anything the alt-right does (I know what Richard Spencer plans to do and I'm 100% against an ethno-State in every way) but to point out merely one more way in which pretty much anything we can say about the alt-right, we can say about Antifa. There are some differences. The alt-right has a lot more guns, and Antifa and their ilk hold the institutions of learning.

Just...keep in mind, any solution we're going to have to deploy against the alt-right, we should be prepared to do so regarding Antifa as well.

[Deleted]

Haha nazis what a non problem lol

Haha yeah but Antifa right?! They're the real threat amirite?

[Daethz]

Yeah apparently the alt-right is a organized organization with memberships.
Also apparently neo nazis and KKK, established hate groups are now considered "The alt-right" just because.
I'm not even sure if neo nazis or KKK are even right leaning, how do they feel on matters other than racial ones, do they support capitalism and republic/democracy?
Because actual nazis supported socialism/dictatorship hybrid.

[Deleted]

People who aren't blind and ignorant of reality already knew this a long time ago.

Which is why the alt-righters claiming they are "peacefully"(aka the alt right's alternative label for shooting up and running vehicles into innocent citizens) advocating for Nazism and shouldn't be subject to "violence"(aka the alt-right's alternative label for self-defense) are mocked and then summarily ignored.

That's why it's a fringe ideology just like the alt-left with it's neo-marxist rethoric. Both sides have fringe ideas and would like to impose concetration camps aka gulags for the opossition.

[raz98]

Shalidor is the only one here making sense. He's making sound observations, backing up his points, and is calm and rational in his delivery.
most of the people responding to him: "Yeah b-but .. we gotta bash the fash! D:"
He's right, Antifa isnt going to win this culture war because the Alt-Right is using information as their weapon while the Alt-Left is trying to use violence to silence its flow. The average thinking American(the majority) is seeing this and saying "whats are they saying that's so bad that people are willing to attack them to silence?"

If you support Trump, a self-professed alt-right and Neo Nazi, then you belong in the same category as him.

Hence, 1/3 of the nation is already a very conservative estimate. But carry on white-washing 1/3 of the nation. It's the modus operandi of alt-righters and alt-right apologists after all.

You got some proof that he's self professed? because you're implying that he came out and publicly said "I am a nazi". If you could back that claim up, I would appreciate it and be willing to do a complete 180 on my views, as I do not believe we should round up and kill "subhumans".

[Shkar]

You could make the argument, but not very well. Right now, the alt-right isn't trying to do anything more than get limits on immigration, and they have the ultimate weapon on their side in that pursuit; the truth. That's why violently shutting them down right now is not just against American values and their basic human rights, but also tactically...unsound.

Aside from the incident with the car, the alt-right hasn't killed anyone, and there is a great deal of contention surrounding the circumstances of that particular loss of life. Footage surfaced that showed other people attacking the car before it started moving (which made the people who only posted half the video look really, really bad, CNN) the fact that the arresting officers said the driver was in "fight-or-flight" mode when they arrested him, and that Heather herself was just as much a victim of the "healthy at any size" movement as she was getting hit by a car.

On the other hand, in 2016, there was a fatal stabbing of a fraternity member at UoT, by a guy wearing Antifa garb, and a week before that stabbing, there was a post on IGD about how they were going to start waging war on university frats for the rape culture that they perpetuate. I don't say this to justify anything the alt-right does (I know what Richard Spencer plans to do and I'm 100% against an ethno-State in every way) but to point out merely one more way in which pretty much anything we can say about the alt-right, we can say about Antifa. There are some differences. The alt-right has a lot more guns, and Antifa and their ilk hold the institutions of learning.

Just...keep in mind, any solution we're going to have to deploy against the alt-right, we should be prepared to do so regarding Antifa as well.

As of right now, it doesn't seem that they are mobilizing to try to increase the violence, which I think pretty much everyone can agree is a good thing. Recent (last 20-30 years) has shown that currently, right-wing terrorism is far more prevalent in the US (74% of terroristic murders, according to NPR). Many of the recent history right-wing acts seem exactly like what the worst of the alt-right would encourage if they could get away with it. Even if the alt-right is too new and small for any of those older acts to actually part of their specific actions, it definitely seems like they have a more radical audience to pull from.

Conversely, while Antifa and such has grown this year, I strongly suspect that most of that is reactionary. If the issues they're concerned with were addressed, I strongly suspect most of their new growth would leave. Maybe even the old members, if they felt things were being addressed. If they continued to riot and such, or (god forbid) started amassing a body count, then I would be strongly in favor of addressing them as well.

As of right now, however, I only see one side that is taking uniforms, chants, and ideologies from a monstrous regime. Even if you want to make the comparison between Antifa and the Soviets, I haven't seen any evidence that they want to institute the kind of purges Stalin did.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for violence here. I have no sympathy if someone like Richard Spencer gets punched, but I do believe that they are adept at spinning that as a recruitment tool. I would much rather limit it, as much as possible, to things like the online shaming and deplatforming. Non-violent is far better when it is possible. Hopefully it doesn't get to the point where we need to actually worry about being forced to abandon non-violent means of change.

[Deleted]

Right now I am more worred about those antifa guys, who imo might like the idea of camps even more.

[Deleted]

As of right now, it doesn't seem that they are mobilizing to try to increase the violence, which I think pretty much everyone can agree is a good thing. Recent (last 20-30 years) has shown that currently, right-wing terrorism is far more prevalent in the US (74% of terroristic murders, according to NPR). Many of the recent history right-wing acts seem exactly like what the worst of the alt-right would encourage if they could get away with it. Even if the alt-right is too new and small for any of those older acts to actually part of their specific actions, it definitely seems like they have a more radical audience to pull from.

Conversely, while Antifa and such has grown this year, I strongly suspect that most of that is reactionary. If the issues they're concerned with were addressed, I strongly suspect most of their new growth would leave. Maybe even the old members, if they felt things were being addressed. If they continued to riot and such, or (god forbid) started amassing a body count, then I would be strongly in favor of addressing them as well.

As of right now, however, I only see one side that is taking uniforms, chants, and ideologies from a monstrous regime. Even if you want to make the comparison between Antifa and the Soviets, I haven't seen any evidence that they want to institute the kind of purges Stalin did.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for violence here. I have no sympathy if someone like Richard Spencer gets punched, but I do believe that they are adept at spinning that as a recruitment tool. I would much rather limit it, as much as possible, to things like the online shaming and deplatforming. Non-violent is far better when it is possible. Hopefully it doesn't get to the point where we need to actually worry about being forced to abandon non-violent means of change.

Except you are accounting for single NON-LINKED terrorist murders. Overwhelming majority done by insane people, people with no affiliation to any network or organisation like we have in Europe with ISIS SPONSORED attacks. They are two different things. That and the gun laws in US that make it easy to carry out such attacks so easy even mentally ill people can do it.

And ANTIFA comming togheter and trying to bash the fash because some "right-wing" yet insane persons commited attacks in the last 20-30 years makes no sense at all. It's not a civil war, the alt-right is not ISIS.

[Shkar]

Except you are accounting for single NON-LINKED terrorist murders. Overwhelming majority done by insane people, people with no affiliation to any network or organisation like we have in Europe with ISIS SPONSORED attacks. They are two different things. That and the gun laws in US that make it easy to carry out such attacks so easy even mentally ill people can do it.

The point of linking that was to show that the right is, for whatever reason, currently far more likely to go for the kill. Yes, many of them are unaffiliated so far. However, it is not unreasonable to say that there is a decent chance of some of the types of people who commit those acts joining with the extremists. And, in that case, one side clearly has more to pull from. Like I said, it doesn't appear that they are making a move to start doing that kind of thing, but when it comes to ability, they definitely seem to have an edge.

[raz98]

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The point of linking that was to show that the right is, for whatever reason, currently far more likely to go for the kill. Yes, many of them are unaffiliated so far. However, it is not unreasonable to say that there is a decent chance of some of the types of people who commit those acts joining with the extremists. And, in that case, one side clearly has more to pull from. Like I said, it doesn't appear that they are making a move to start doing that kind of thing, but when it comes to ability, they definitely seem to have an edge.

Yes but it hasnt happened yet. We have to act reactively, not preemptively to people being crazy; otherwise you only give them fuel, and push them closer to that violent reaction.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for violence here. I have no sympathy if someone like Richard Spencer gets punched, but I do believe that they are adept at spinning that as a recruitment tool. I would much rather limit it, as much as possible, to things like the online shaming and deplatforming. Non-violent is far better when it is possible. Hopefully it doesn't get to the point where we need to actually worry about being forced to abandon non-violent means of change.

I dont think deplatforming is the right answer. This is America, every opinion no matter how shitty should be able to be preached here. It is up to the citizen to combat the real crazy shit by opposing them with rationality and discourse. Attacking people with opinions you dont like at this stage just elevates that person and gives them a better vantage for their voice, whereas combating them with counter-points and facts damages their following and catches the ear of someone who otherwise might have joined them.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Well there are two types of "nazis". A: "Hitler build the autobahns in germany, at least something came of it." B: "Death to all da yews. May the great fuhrer rise again! o/" Sadly both are treated the same. If the stuff in the OP is authentic, then the guy belongs to the 2nd category and needs to be watched.. closely.