The nature of Light and Void (audio drama spoilers)

[KrakHed]

Turalyon sits down and meditates before they even meet Lothraxion trying to find a way out. Obviously the stronger the training and the connection, the more you can see but he still felt there was a point to try to see a way out.

Well, meditation isn't so strange. But I just realized why Illidan may have made the right decision by refusing Xe'ra. The Lightforged are blind to half of reality's nature. Turalyon was unable to see Argus's visions because of that. ...because they are not free...

If Illidan had allowed himself to be Lightforged, he'd have blinded himself to certain possibilities. He'd be unable to properly perceive those futures which were born from darkness.

[tristannarutofan]

She saw generations live and die in invisible chains, bound to a force that granted them fleeting moments of peace in exchange for absolute obedience.

This line perfectly describes why it's so hard to see the Light for what it is and why everybody think it's ultimate good in Void/Light conflict.
It just utilizes feelings/concepts that are far more desirable for mortals that basically "sway" that you want to unquestionably serve the Light if that makes sense xD.
If you wanna go philosophycal that can still be considered good for some people, which is how it should be.

Really glad they're going this way instead of shoving "Light is ultimate good" up to everybody's throats.

I choose neither Light nor Void!! Break the cycle!!!

To be frank extremely evil things use the same words all the time.

You gaslight people into thinking their own wants and emotions are being used against them.

If that was said by darth sidious it wouldnt be out of character.

It sounds scary. But to any murderer who thinks its their right to eat ppls skin, anything that stops him looks like an evil totalitarian force

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I mean are we forgetting the years of the void entities saying shit like "your nightmares will be so full of horror you'll wish for death" " suffer chaos" blah blah

We've seen the light invade a demon world murdering demons and imprisoning some forever....thats a good thing.

We've seen void entities invading azeroth preaching death and suffering.

What alleria saw was nothing new. It just had a new spin on it.

[Deleted]

Well what they fear the most is the crooked serpent that lurks around trying to pass the knowledge of good and evil, trying to passs various worlds the meaning of self preservation and own agenda that is going to make them oppose light and void and their conflict. Old gods may be the tools of voidlords but they can give us the means to oppose whatever this light/void conflict will ultimately bring on Azeroth and domestic life in general. After all sentient races of Azeroth are the result of either initial life forces on the planet or arcane ordering and old god sabotage or even death and necromancy. Nothing to do with light.

Which is itself intriguing

[OIS]

Yeah, actually. Means there's a moral gray area instead of literal good vs literal evil.

But we're already at that moral grey area. We were never truly commited to the side of Light or Void. Doesn't matter what their agendas are, we do our own thing, check for shredder keys in felstalker poop, stuff like that. Making them both do shady stuff doesn't have too much of a point in my opinion. We'll just kill everyone in those raids anyway.

[Dagoth Ur]

To be frank extremely evil things use the same words all the time.

You gaslight people into thinking their own wants and emotions are being used against them.

If that was said by darth sidious it wouldnt be out of character.

It sounds scary. But to any murderer who thinks its their right to eat ppls skin, anything that stops him looks like an evil totalitarian force

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I mean are we forgetting the years of the void entities saying shit like "your nightmares will be so full of horror you'll wish for death" " suffer chaos" blah blah

We've seen the light invade a demon world murdering demons and imprisoning some forever....thats a good thing.

We've seen void entities invading azeroth preaching death and suffering.

What alleria saw was nothing new. It just had a new spin on it.

I just feel like when you look at both for what they really are - two primal cosmic forces who's only purpose is to overpower the other side, it's easier for the Light to convince someone to stand on its side based purely on what it represents and how it makes you feel.

If balance is what needs to be achieved, that somewhat makes Light as dangerous as Void since it operates on concepts like faith and religion which tends to produce zealots and fanatics who can't easily be convinced to change their viewpoint.

To wield the Light, it literally asks of you unquestioned faith and devotion. (For example how Turalyon wasn't able to wield the Light as long as he questioned it about orcs)
If taken to extreme (Xer'a) that can be as dangeorus as madness and panic which is Void's thing.

I mean from our viewpoint Light is clearly the more good of the two, but both can be dangerous when taken to extreme e.g why balance is needed.

[GreenJesus]

According to this story arator is the anchor for Alleria, if he dies she will very likely loose it. I like this personally it opens up the possibility to wipe out one entire branch of those damn windrunners.

Arator can't die. He has all my legendary bodyguard equipment on to give me gold and resources for every world quest.

[Magnagarde]

There are key differences between these two powers that still make the light a natural choice across the board for most living beings in Warcraft's universe, no matter how much Blizzard will try to push the equality sign. The key difference is that one stands for order/blind obedience at a maximum of devotion/ and the other for anarchy/corrupting everything at maximum devotion towards it/.

The light doesn't carry the risk of driving a character towards madness by default, unless that character makes that choice willingly, whereas giving in to the void is a ride towards madness by default for almost everyone. This makes the light a natural pick among these two powers. Just because you can see more of the truth doesn't make the void more appealing; it has to be harnessed by an individual strong enough not to give in and everyone is by default at risk of giving in, whereas giving in to the light doesn't lead to an eternal struggle between sanity and madness, but simply dispersing all shadow and corruption and taking things in moderation, as in not to pull an Arthas.

It is good to have a few powerful individuals wielding the void, but the light still takes the prize home when it comes to the pro/con ratio and accessibility to wider masses of characters. Imagine having an "Army of the Void" where everyone is struggling with oneself in order to not give in to the maddening whispers; it would be a shitshow to say the least.

[KrakHed]

To wield the Light, it literally asks of you unquestioned faith and devotion. (For example how Turalyon wasn't able to wield the Light as long as he questioned it about orcs)

This was actually one of the main warning signs with the Light, because the conclusion that Turalyon had to come to for him to resolve his doubts was plainly incorrect. It inherently contradicted the philosophy of the Light. It was a blatant act of doublethink, but it was enough for her.

[tristannarutofan]

I just feel like when you look at both for what they really are - two primal cosmic forces who's only purpose is to overpower the other side, it's easier for the Light to convince someone to stand on its side based purely on what it represents and how it makes you feel.

If balance is what needs to be achieved, that somewhat makes Light as dangerous as Void since it operates on concepts like faith and religion which tends to produce zealots and fanatics who can't easily be convinced to change their viewpoint.

To wield the Light, it literally asks of you unquestioned faith and devotion. (For example how Turalyon wasn't able to wield the Light as long as he questioned it about orcs)
If taken to extreme (Xer'a) that can be as dangeorus as madness and panic which is Void's thing.

I mean from our viewpoint Light is clearly the more good of the two, but both can be dangerous when taken to extreme e.g why balance is needed.

Oh yea. Sorry. Yea im a big proponent of what ppl likrle you say in which both are cosmic forces ect ect.

I was mostly reacting to early page insistence suggedting that was a 100% sincere vision, and suggestions the Light is evil.

I mean a world being consumed in holy fire 8snt a bad thing if you are 100%sure its nothing but life sucking demons.

We van be cautious of divine forces that have done nothing but help while also realize that entities that have done nothing but try to kill us...might not be completely honest.

Like we find out 1 or 2 bad things about light things and so many ppl want to say its just as bad or worse than the thing that has been eating souls and trying to kill us for years

[Magistrate]

Well, that's a welcome change, obv it won't sit right w/ a certain crowd among roleplayers and lore fans, but it's kinda obvious that Blizz were going in this direction since Chronicles book release.



Hm, I don't think so, IMHO, its goal is not to protect and preserve any life in universe, but is to simply become dominant force in the universe by having more followers, e.g., species, civilisations, etc aligned/infused w/ Light. And basically the same goes for Void, but Void has a bit harder time manifesting in physical universe

The cosmic goal of the Void is to consume and destroy everything. Light is the polar opposite, therefor its goal is to preserve all creation at any cost. Being the "dominant force" would come along with that, arguably.

[tristannarutofan]

I see a lot of talk about xera and the crusade but not the most recent example.

Remember the rumkhar. They wherent just using the light for evil. They where so paranoid about corruption they murdered anyone associated with shadow magic and use the curse as a form of punishment. The arrakoa of outland didnt have us to save them so ppl like sethekk gained more followrrs willing to go to the extreme of dark magic.

I bring it up because it wasnt just...lightness. it was their irratiobal fear of dark magic that lead them to do horrible things and what drove their victims desperately into the void

[Golden Yak]

Man, who would have thought WoW of all things would inject new life and interest into fantasy's most overused dichotomy.

[Magistrate]

We van be cautious of divine forces that have done nothing but help while also realize that entities that have done nothing but try to kill us...might not be completely honest.

Like we find out 1 or 2 bad things about light things and so many ppl want to say its just as bad or worse than the thing that has been eating souls and trying to kill us for years

You're not wrong, and that's largely the fault of Blizzard. I mean, originally the "Light" was like the Catholic church in the oldest Warcraft lore, and it's changed a lot. Then it was hardly discussed as a topic for multiple expansions, and now they're revisiting it. And their thought is probably--how can we tell a more human, interesting story? How can we create a dialog that isn't just "lol lite is rite"--the spectrum of right and wrong in the real world isn't that simplistic. Also, such a story would just be a long deus ex machina trip.

Counter argument, though: the Void devours souls, yes, but what about the Light? What does it really mean when someone joins any of the ranks worshipping the Light and fighting for it? They consign their souls, and everything they ever wanted, to the goals of the Light. Honestly, they seem to lose a lot of their humanity and freedom. I realize that's a pretty vague argument, but the implications have always been there.

I think the Light is basically being revisioned as what Arcane/Titan stuff used to be, and the Void as what Fel/demon stuff used to be--a desparate, cosmic battle between order and chaos, where mortal beings--who are products of both, have their own flaws, and their own exceptional gifts that neither can understand--are caught in the middle.

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Man, who would have thought WoW of all things would inject new life and interest into fantasy's most overused dichotomy.

Honestly, I am kind of sick of it, but it will be cool to see. I just want to return to simpler, closer-to-home stories and struggles, with things like this mixed in.

[KrakHed]

but what about the Light?

Isn't that explicitly part of how Naaru regenerate back to full strength, so long as they don't fall to the Void? They start automatically attracting souls to themselves, and recuperate back to full strength.

Man, who would have thought WoW of all things would inject new life and interest into fantasy's most overused dichotomy.

I'm actually surprised by how right I was about everything, but I guess I did used to RP a Shadow Priest. I was actually able to correctly identify what the Old Gods were years before Chronicles, at least in the sense that they were clearly massive Void creatures made of flesh. Like a more advanced form of Fleshbeast. Which is pretty much exactly what they are.

EDIT: If I recall correctly, I think I even correctly predicted that their purpose was to fight among one another until only one prevailed and then consume and assimilate entire worlds. What I failed to predict were the existence of world souls. My omniscience of WoW lore is pretty much limited to the Void, of which I know each and every minor detail about.

[GreenJesus]

Except it shows an older kid Arator in Stormwind to Alleria. Something completely impossible if time is slower in the Nether.

Therefore, even being present time, Stormwind was already rebuilt by the time of Beyond the Dark Portal, so it doesn't fit.

EDIT: I was wrong about the Arator part.

No. Time is FASTER in the nether.

[Jokubas]

Man, who would have thought WoW of all things would inject new life and interest into fantasy's most overused dichotomy.

I think they handled it really well, too. Challenging that dichotomy is pretty standard nowadays. A lot of stories certainly still use it for simplicity's sake, but it's one of the easiest cliches to challenge if you want to brag about your story being different. Back when Diablo 3 was first being revealed, all the heavenly imagery really made me afraid that, with the Prime Evils dead, Diablo would pull the "angels are secretly just as evil (or at least dangerously negligent) as demons" thing that I see pretty much everywhere nowadays. It came as quite a shock to me that Imperius was a jerk, but otherwise the angels were pretty cool and Tyrael was a true hero.

Likewise, I feel they went even deeper here. They didn't just invert it or say there's no good, which is the easy and most common route. In fact, they kept it where the Light tends toward virtues we value and the Void is innately dangerous. But they made them truly alien, from an era that predates our universe, and they are built to follow the rules of that very different time. The two combined created our universe and both are important to it, but that means one without the other cannot comprehend the extent of our reality. There's some real moral ambiguity, in that the Light truly means well, but cannot see the whole picture and thus can do bad things. Likewise, the Void intends to do things we'd generally hate (like undoing all life in the universe), but that doesn't mean it has to be used for evil.

Thinking back, this explains two major things to me.

Number one: Xe'ra saying we needed to be redeemed for killing Illidan in the Burning Crusade. That line didn't bother me as much as other players, but even as someone who didn't want to have to kill Illidan in Burning Crusade, I was annoyed at the implication that we're bad for not knowing things we couldn't possibly have known (I really hate that cliche of trying to guilt heroes for stopping a villain who really meant well, but built up an evil reputation and never tried to tell anyone about their true mission until they're dying). After the audio drama, that line from her makes perfect sense.

To Xe'ra, there is really only one fate in which good wins out, she cannot actually comprehend possibilities that involve anything than the Light. Therefore, anyone who risks upsetting that fate would, if not outright be working for evil, then still have let evil win. In her eyes it was totally reasonable to see us in need of redemption for upsetting fate, regardless of what our justifications were.

Number two: The almost pre-programmed way she acted toward Illidan in the Rejection of the Gift. I mentioned before that she seemed like a robot just going about a pre-programmed order, and in some ways I don't I think I was far from the truth. Once she had bound Illidan, she repeated almost the same lines as she did toward Turalyon during his ascension. Considering the rest of the audio drama, it seems likely that Xe'ra cannot comprehend that a hero (which she saw Illidan as) would not want her gift, as nothing exists to her outside her nature except evil. In other words, it's as if she physically couldn't hear Illidan protest. Xe'ra simply read the script, because that's the only thing she can do.

[KrakHed]

Likewise, the Void intends to do things we'd generally hate (like undoing all life in the universe), but that doesn't mean it has to be used for evil.

We're also not told that the Void's perspective makes sense to the mortals of Azeroth, but rather that it would seem like lies to them. But that's how the Void sees things. We're also shown that it fails to comprehend the idea of love. What we're shown of the Void is that it seems to see all choices as valid. In short, the Void is amoral. Right and wrong don't even enter into the equation. So when the Void sees people adhering to rules about right and wrong, it's confused. Why would someone refuse to do something they wanted because it was "wrong"? Why would they reject so many possibilities and choices for so intangible a reason?

I think that's part of why the Void sees the Light as a corruption. It sees people doing or refusing to do things for reasons that don't make sense to it. It sees the Light going out of its way to intervene in events that don't concern it, to destroy corruption and "right" "wrongs", all for no real reason as far as the Void is concerned. It doesn't understand why the Light is attacking it, not really. The reasons seem like nonsensical bullshit to the Void.

At least, that's the impression I got. The Void sees the Light as hostile and insane, enforcing nonsensical rules and getting everyone to follow these same invisible chains. Sometimes taking extreme action for the sake of some incomprehensible ideals.

[Jokubas]

That's a good point. Describing the details has been a bit difficult. I get the general idea, but articulating it can be difficult. I think that's a great way to describe the Void's perspective.

[Lothaeryn]

Well, all Guardians of the Universe need a Ganthet or two. But yeah, the Light obviously isn't evil. However, I think it's likely that there have historically been horrifying Armies of the Light whose ideals would be inherently offensive to ours.

Exactly, I have a feeling the Naaru are not a consistent faction of entities like we originally thought they were in BC. Considering A'Dal opposed Illidan and demanded his death to 'save' outland and Azeroth, and Xe'ra doing the opposite, believing him to the the champion of the end times.

With those two opposing views we could easily construe that Xe'ra is an outlier faction of interest amongst the light, as 90% of the games lore shows that the wielders and harbingers of the light generally do not force themselves upon others, and generally care for the well being of life in all forms. Xe'ra seems to take this to an extreme, which is not inherently common in regards to the Naaru.

Perhaps, beings of light see prophecy, but like the audio drama explains, the light only sees part of the picture. Perhaps A'dal saw Illidan as a threat in his 'prophecy' of the future, and called upon the heroes of Azeroth to stop him. And Xe'ra, seeing in her prophecy Illidan being the savior, did the opposite to try and recruit him instad.

the Naaru being oracles in some sense would put them on diverging paths in service to the light, meaning they could eventually go to extremes and become more harmful than good.

[KrakHed]

Exactly, I have a feeling the Naaru are not a consistent faction of entities like we originally thought they were in BC. Considering A'Dal opposed Illidan and demanded his death to 'save' outland and Azeroth, and Xe'ra doing the opposite, believing him to the the champion of the end times.

With those two opposing views we could easily construe that Xe'ra is an outlier faction of interest amongst the light, as 90% of the games lore shows that the wielders and harbingers of the light generally do not force themselves upon others, and generally care for the well being of life in all forms. Xe'ra seems to take this to an extreme, which is not inherently common in regards to the Naaru.

Perhaps, beings of light see prophecy, but like the audio drama explains, the light only sees part of the picture. Perhaps A'dal saw Illidan as a threat in his 'prophecy' of the future, and called upon the heroes of Azeroth to stop him. And Xe'ra, seeing in her prophecy Illidan being the savior, did the opposite to try and recruit him instad.

the Naaru being oracles in some sense would put them on diverging paths in service to the light, meaning they could eventually go to extremes and become more harmful than good.

It's really hard to tell how much of an outlier Xe'ra might be. She certainly doesn't seem much like the Naaru Velen has hung out with before, but that's kind of the thing. Any Naaru we would have hung out with would be ones personally interested in helping us, and who didn't do anything too offensive in the process. So, A'dal is a pretty cool guy, but what if there are a million others out there with their heads shoved up their collective asses just waiting for the conditions of prophecies to be fulfilled before they start doing what they're "meant" to do?

In Legion itself, Odyn was a good example of a Light-user who turns out to be a total self-righteous bastard if you look at his history, who very much did force himself onto others.

We're told this is a war that's been going on since forever, and Xa'atath has been giving us hints that the Naaru may be hiding some details about all the shit that went down before they picked up the Draenei. Xe'ra might just be a little old-fashioned.