The nature of Light and Void (audio drama spoilers)

[Deleted]

Beware of the light.

[Elyiandris]

As much of a fan as I am about the lore in WoW and where it's going, I agree with you.

In the past 5 years we have seen the overlap between lore elements in Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo universes. I understand that Blizzard loves to take things from one game and put it into another, but this overlap is ridiculous.

Very much so. Every time someone mentions the Void trope in WoW, I just can't get excited by it no matter what, as it brings to mind the bad iteration of the Xel'naga and Kerrigan storylines in SC2. This whole balance of light and shadow has yet to convince me as well, since druids and some shamans (and maybe mages too, through study of the cosmic forces of the arcane) already incorporate this theme in Warcraft. The Light isn't about balance, it's about faith, holiness and righteousness.

I guess we'll see where it goes, though...

[Noomz]

"She saw the Light moving through the cosmos like a ravenous predator. She saw it touch the minds of Azeroth's mortals—a touch that corrupted them forever. She saw generations live and die in invisible chains, bound to a force that granted them fleeting moments of peace in exchange for absolute obedience.

She saw war. She saw the forces of the Light striking back against the Void. She saw darkened worlds burning in holy fire. She saw millions of creatures encased in luminous crystals the size of mountains, sustained by the Light and unable to die. Warriors of the Light were monsters, corrupting and consuming everything they touched."


Sure, Alleria is having a Shadow Vision, but it is close to truth. The Light and the Void aren't good nor evil, they are primal cosmic forces fighting each other and using every tool they can. For example, Xe'ra. We all know what she tried to do with Illidan, but she does the same to Turalyon and Alleria in the audio drama (although these two accepted with no problem). She lied to them about the future, showing a Stormwind-Quel'thalas Alliance, with a high elf Sylvanas.

So, Blizzard is clearly moving to "Babylon 5" look about the Light and the Void.

"The Void shows only half-truths".

Xe'ra didn't lie about the future. It was the future she saw and it was truth to her. She's a being of pure Light, she could see nothing else or believe nothing else than what she saw would be the truth and only way. The Light and the Void are elemental forces so to speak, they can only do and be what they are, they cannot break their own mold.

That's what this audio drama is telling us. The Light and the Void are two sides of the coin and we as mortals need to be the third side of the coin that balances the coin on its edge.

The Light is still the better choice of the two, because it doesn't drive you to insane, murderous rage and afterwards consumes your soul to torture for eternity like the Void does.

[KrakHed]

"The Void shows only half-truths".

A half-truth is something that's generally true, but lacking in context. The Void is framing the Light in the worst possible... well, light. But it's not truly lying to do so. It switches between allegory, seemingly depicting moral values as "invisible chains", to depictions of literal events like worlds being purged in holy fire and millions being imprisoned in crystal mountains.

[Wilfire]

Does combining the Light and the Void give twilight? Halion does say "I am the light AND the darkness!" and he's a twilight dragon. Is that why the Void shows Alleria a vision of herself killing N'Zoth? Do the Void Lords see N'Zoth the same way Xe'ra sees Alleria (a champion of the Void dabbling in the Light in the former's case)?

[KrakHed]

Does combining the Light and the Void give twilight? Halion does say "I am the light AND the darkness!" and he's a twilight dragon. Is that why the Void shows Alleria a vision of herself killing N'Zoth? Do the Void Lords see N'Zoth the same way Xe'ra sees Alleria (a champion of the Void dabbling in the Light in the former's case)?

Interesting question. The Twilight Cult actually did have Paladins working for it, and it did use Benedictus and Farthing to exploit the kind of faith the Light teaches to promote the ideals he wanted to promote as "the only way". It's possible that as one of the weaker yet more cunning Old Gods, he could have taken to dabbling in the ways and methods of the Light to serve his own interests.

An Old God deciding to usurp the Light to make itself like a god unto both Light and Void, to make itself the absolute ideal of all and become the one true path, well. That would be scary.

It's worth noting that his servant Azshara, once known as the Light of Lights, is still known as the Light beneath the Tides, if I recall correctly. So, N'zoth certainly knows how to exploit the imagery of the Light.

The scariest thing we could possibly hear from N'zoth is pious and sanctimonious, yet utterly insane, preaching. The worst of both worlds. He who will bring the Eternal Conflict to its end, breaking down reality as we know it as he reforges the many truths as one, to form a path where everything leads down the same road into his awaiting gullet. N'Zoth, the truth of all truths. All is one in N'zoth, and N'zoth is all. His tendrils far-reaching and many, representing an inescapable destiny no matter which path you choose to take and which direction you choose to go. All roads lead to N'zoth. All roads are N'zoth. The beginning and the end, and all that comes in between.

But seriously, N'zoth trying to become the Demiurge would make for an interesting plot.

[Frontenac]

Isn't the answer to that obvious? You go where you want, and fuck everyone else. You do it for what you want, and fuck everyone else. How do you reach it? Whichever way you want to, and fuck everyone else. All goals are equally valid. All methods of achieving them are equally valid. There is no wrong choice. The Void is amoral to an obscene extreme, but it does have a general direction that prevents it from becoming stagnant.

Whichever path it takes, it'll always aim for more. Not less. It wouldn't be wrong to aim for less, but it would rather take more. And more. And more. How it achieves that is by whichever path seems the most convenient. Any will do. The Void has always been able to construct elaborate plans, but it's not too tied down by any one of them. The Hour of Twilight with Deathwing failed, so just toss that down the drain and find another plan. You've got backups. Thousands of Plan Bs. They're all acceptable and true paths to success. If the Emerald Nightmare doesn't pan out, you switch on to Azshara. If Azshara doesn't work, maybe you've got a plan to raise your buddy C'thun. You've got options. All the options in the world.

That is why Xal'atath is so quick to change strategies from raising Zakajz for the Twilight Cult to consuming him for the player. Both paths are true to her. Both will accomplish her goals. Neither choice is more right or wrong than the other. There is no need to be consistent in action, there is no need to not abandon one path for another if a better one turns up.

But that does not work. If you have a goal, not all paths can be true. You must choose one (or a few) and shun the rest. Because some paths will lead you away from your goal whereas others will get you closer to it. What you are describing is the capacity to adapt to a situation. That is simply flexibility and wisdom, in fact. How can it lead you to madness? And are we to believe that the Light is unable to adapt to a situation and change strategies, while remaining true to its goals and its principles? Now that would be stupidity and madness.

I take what is said at face value: for the Void ALL goals are true and ALL paths are true. Subjectivity at its purest. Now that's truly maddening. Because how can you choose if every possibility is equally desirable to the others? That's how Alleria keeps her sanity. She chose a truth to keep her to reality: her love for Arator.

[huth]

The Light is still the better choice of the two, because it doesn't drive you to insane, murderous rage and afterwards consumes your soul to torture for eternity like the Void does.

Look at the Army of Light. Particularly Grand Lector Enaara.

I'm not so convincend on that point.

[KrakHed]

But that does not work. If you have a goal, not all paths can be true. You must choose one (or a few) and shun the rest. Because some paths will lead you away from your goal whereas others will get you closer to it. What you are describing is the capacity to adapt to a situation. That is simply flexibility and wisdom, in fact. How can it lead you to madness? And are we to believe that the Light is unable to adapt to a situation and change strategies, while remaining true to its goals and its principles? Now that would be stupidity and madness.

I take what is said at face value: for the Void ALL goals are true and ALL paths are true. Subjectivity at its purest. Now that's truly maddening. Because how can you choose if every possibility is equally desirable to the others? That's how Alleria keeps her sanity. She chose a truth to keep her to reality: her love for Arator.

Are you sure you understand what it means by "all paths are true"? We've seen Void creatures. Even the purest of them. They have a goal. They want more. They don't care if they have to murder billions, donate to charity and feed the hungry, open up a Chinese restaurant, or make a dress out of baby skin.

That's why it's maddening. Every path to their vague goal of "more" is equally legitimate. Alleria held onto her sanity by holding onto the one thing she was sure she would not do, no matter the reason. As a result, she never succumbs to the full Void mentality.

I am not describing flexibility and wisdom here. Wisdom knows that some things are going to far, knows that some things are wrong. The Void is flexible and wise in a very particular fashion. If it wants ten dollars, it'll go outside and stab someone to death if that's quicker. That's more flexible than someone who won't. That's also insane. Arranging an accident to kill your family for insurance money is insane. It's also showing greater flexibility than most are capable of. If it doesn't want to pay for pizza, it will shoot the delivery man. And eat his corpse if it's still hungry later. Every path is fine.

Sometimes, there are choices you shouldn't consider to be valid under any circumstances. The Void is extremely flexible. However, the Void is also absolutely insane as a result.

[huth]

But that does not work. If you have a goal, not all paths can be true. You must choose one (or a few) and shun the rest.

Sure. They just aren't the paths to your goal. They're still true paths to a goal. And you can walk a path without denying the existence of the others. You can also deliberately decide to walk away from your goal, or decide to pursue a different one.

What you are describing is the capacity to adapt to a situation. That is simply flexibility and wisdom, in fact. How can it lead you to madness? And are we to believe that the Light is unable to adapt to a situation and change strategies, while remaining true to its goals and its principles?

Short answer: Yes. Case in point: Xe'ra. Unwilling to change, compromise or even consider anything other than her "true" path, even when Illidan was rather insistent on going a different one.

Both Light and Void can lead to madness if approached the wrong way. Following one exclusively and overly strictly is pretty much guaranteed to do so, because this isn't a thing meant for mortal minds. Keep in mind that the entire physical world of WarCraft is a creation of Light and Void.

[Piamonte]

Funny how Benedictus in a certain way summed this up back in Cataclysm.

lol you are right, may be the old gods managed to get him n their side by showing him the truth, so he could see the bad side of both void and light

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It's cool how his comparison literally describes what Light and Void are all about.

Light sticks to dogmas, one ultimate truth, which's common viewpoint in majority of religions, and at the same time refuses all the others.
Void embraces all the possibilities which can pretty easily be associated with madness. Just tying to imagine something infinite makes you feel a little mad

Really shows why there needs to be balance between stagnancy of the Light and ever-motioness of the Void.

i wonder if this talk about fate and its importance in the fight between light and void has something to do with the timelines, i mean, we have one true timeline and infinite alter ones

[KrakHed]

i wonder if this talk about fate and its importance in the fight between light and void has something to do with the timelines, i mean, we have one true timeline and infinite alter ones

Well, the Old Gods did create the Infinite Dragonflight by unsticking them from time. The Void would probably love a world where every timeline and reality could run together freely.

[Piamonte]

I just feel like when you look at both for what they really are - two primal cosmic forces who's only purpose is to overpower the other side, it's easier for the Light to convince someone to stand on its side based purely on what it represents and how it makes you feel.

If balance is what needs to be achieved, that somewhat makes Light as dangerous as Void since it operates on concepts like faith and religion which tends to produce zealots and fanatics who can't easily be convinced to change their viewpoint.

To wield the Light, it literally asks of you unquestioned faith and devotion. (For example how Turalyon wasn't able to wield the Light as long as he questioned it about orcs)
If taken to extreme (Xer'a) that can be as dangeorus as madness and panic which is Void's thing.

I mean from our viewpoint Light is clearly the more good of the two, but both can be dangerous when taken to extreme e.g why balance is needed.

i think light is the better one to us because we have only seen the nice side of the light, and not the more extreme one when they start imprisoning people in crystals and burning entire planets

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There are key differences between these two powers that still make the light a natural choice across the board for most living beings in Warcraft's universe, no matter how much Blizzard will try to push the equality sign. The key difference is that one stands for order/blind obedience at a maximum of devotion/ and the other for anarchy/corrupting everything at maximum devotion towards it/.

The light doesn't carry the risk of driving a character towards madness by default, unless that character makes that choice willingly, whereas giving in to the void is a ride towards madness by default for almost everyone. This makes the light a natural pick among these two powers. Just because you can see more of the truth doesn't make the void more appealing; it has to be harnessed by an individual strong enough not to give in and everyone is by default at risk of giving in, whereas giving in to the light doesn't lead to an eternal struggle between sanity and madness, but simply dispersing all shadow and corruption and taking things in moderation, as in not to pull an Arthas.

It is good to have a few powerful individuals wielding the void, but the light still takes the prize home when it comes to the pro/con ratio and accessibility to wider masses of characters. Imagine having an "Army of the Void" where everyone is struggling with oneself in order to not give in to the maddening whispers; it would be a shitshow to say the least.

its true, light is the easiest choice, but i have a theory to counter that, light has to be the nicest one because in every oportunity the light loses the fight, i think that this is not the first time the universo is created and in each iteration the void wins and consumes everything only for a new universo to be created again

[Frontenac]

Are you sure you understand what it means by "all paths are true"? We've seen Void creatures. Even the purest of them. They have a goal. They want more.

More of what?

[Piamonte]

Exactly, I have a feeling the Naaru are not a consistent faction of entities like we originally thought they were in BC. Considering A'Dal opposed Illidan and demanded his death to 'save' outland and Azeroth, and Xe'ra doing the opposite, believing him to the the champion of the end times.

With those two opposing views we could easily construe that Xe'ra is an outlier faction of interest amongst the light, as 90% of the games lore shows that the wielders and harbingers of the light generally do not force themselves upon others, and generally care for the well being of life in all forms. Xe'ra seems to take this to an extreme, which is not inherently common in regards to the Naaru.

Perhaps, beings of light see prophecy, but like the audio drama explains, the light only sees part of the picture. Perhaps A'dal saw Illidan as a threat in his 'prophecy' of the future, and called upon the heroes of Azeroth to stop him. And Xe'ra, seeing in her prophecy Illidan being the savior, did the opposite to try and recruit him instad.

the Naaru being oracles in some sense would put them on diverging paths in service to the light, meaning they could eventually go to extremes and become more harmful than good.

well it makes sense, may be Xera being a prime naaru can see more than Adal and saw a future with Illidan being the saviour that Adal couldnt see

[KrakHed]

More of what?

Everything. More power, more sustenance, more growth. They're like a cancer.

[Noomz]

Look at the Army of Light. Particularly Grand Lector Enaara.

I'm not so convincend on that point.

What about her? I don't know who she is.
No matter what that example is, she's just 1. While we have the entirity of the Twilight Hammer cult to point to how the Void completely fucks you up and wants nothing else than genocidal destruction.
I think the Light is a lot preferable to that.

[Piamonte]

I'm not sure this is about religion or organized society so much, or that the Light is the "path less traveled". I think the "path less traveled" is what the Void is. All the paths you would normally never even consider. All the murders and betrayals that you were always able to do, but had blinded yourself to because you found them unthinkable. But to the Void, nothing is unthinkable.

The Light is about fighting for whatever truth you consider to be right. The Void is more rejecting that anything is right or wrong in the first place, and making all actions morally equivalent. Eating a baby is the same as taking care of a baby, and the choice between them is entirely about how it benefits you.

That's why all roads are open to the Void. Right and wrong simply don't factor in.

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Oh, and I just realized something interesting. See, the Naaru Saa'ra helped design the Conclave's Altar of Light and Shadow. Netherlight Temple was dedicated to researching the Void to help her and the other Naaru, and none of Velen's allies ever stopped him. The Netherlight Crucible was also designed for both Light and Void, and Velen sees absolutely no issue with that. Why is there such an ideological difference between Xe'ra and the Naaru Velen knows, who were willing to tell him about how they go Void? How ere the Auchenai allowed?

And then it hit me. Velen and his Naaru friends are more ideologically in line with the Cult of Forgotten Shadow's doctrine of balance than the mainstream Church of the Holy Light. All the Naaru we've known up until now have been Shadow Cultist in terms of their beliefs. Velen is basically a Shadow Cultist, who never once showed discomfort at using the prophecies of the Void. Sure, he primarily uses the Light, while most Shadow Cultists focus on the Void, but his underlying beliefs are the same.

The friendly Naaru have been their equivalent of Shadow Cultists all along. The Sha'tar are as close as you can get to a Naaru shadow cult.

Xe'ra seems to be an outlier because she's the only one we've seen who doesn't profess the beliefs of a Shadow Cultist.

i think that Xera being a prime naaru and Adal a common naaru is the same to say as if we had a Windows 97 and a Windows 2000, 97 is the first one but its obsolote compared to the 2000, thats why xera way of doing things is a lot more harsh than the way other naarus act

[mingarrubia]

Man, who would have thought WoW of all things would inject new life and interest into fantasy's most overused dichotomy.

The luciferian/gnostic narrative is pretty mainstream these days... it isn't that original tbh.

[vondevon]

"She saw war. She saw the forces of the Light striking back against the Void. She saw darkened worlds burning in holy fire. She saw millions of creatures encased in luminous crystals the size of mountains, sustained by the Light and unable to die. Warriors of the Light were monsters, corrupting and consuming everything they touched."

Did this line stand out to anyone else? Void worlds bathed in fire I understood, but what the heck are these monolithic crystalline beings sustained by light? Sounds like only one kind of creature I ever heard of. Until now, the Naaru have always been presumed to be beings of pure Light -- but just as Void magic involves souls, could Light also involve souls? Are the Naaru filled with the souls of those who have been Lightforged or "touched by the Light"?

In the Seat of the Triumvirate, when discussing how Lura fell to the Void, some bit of dialogue notes that "the only instances I have ever heard of always involved mortals. What interesting implications..."

After listening to the audio drama, I'm thinking that the Naaru have not been totally honest about how they came to be and what they are. I think mortal souls are involved, and that's why they can transition between the Light and Void states.