Unrest in Spain: the Spanish government is taking control of the Catalan police force

[ranzino]

So you would deny the people of Spain the right to make their own decisions?
Because they all voted to have this very law when they gave themselves this constitution.

depends on what the text was i replied to. if it was something like everybody and their grandma in spain should have a say in catalonia, then fuck it. catalonia should have no say in other regions of spain also, but they are cool about that principle and would agree.

what was the alternative back then ? and you know: some dumbshells also voted the Grundgesetz in force in 1949, nobody asked me.

[DrMcNinja]

Agreed, the violence was reprehensible but it does seem that the referendum beyond being illegal was also inadequately supervised, especially considering the gravity of the matter. The issue is though that due to the police violence some of the EU states if not the commission itself may very well start pressuring the Spanish government to come forward with the proper constitutional ammendment and allow the Catalans a referendum or be censured.

And while on the topic of police violence: Even though I do not want to twist and turn it, they did announce beforehand that they would act harshly if they would continue with this referendum. So the Catalan government is also to blame for not thinking about its citizen's safety first, and just provoking Madrid.

[DrMcNinja]

At some point the will of the people becomes evident and the rule of law is subjugated. Change historically requires a measure of violence. What was clear is that many people were willing to come forward, even when violence was almost assured, in order to vote for Catalan independence (for or against, that doesn't matter). Which means that the will of the people is clear and the legislative authority needs to find a way to provide them with that referendum.

That is true, and I'm sure that if they don't come together for dialogue by themselves, the EU eventually has to step in if things get too hot.

[Grimbold21]

So what are the the results? What's happening next?

[Wikiy]

Or they can support Catalans and anger the Spaniards. But in that case, EU ends up as the moral victor, who stands with the weak and oppressed. What do you think EU will do when faced with choice if the Spain doesn't deescalate the situation?

It is far more complex than this, and the EU has much bigger stakes in supporting Spain than what you're suggesting. If the EU backs Catalonia, it's essentially sending a message to secessionists that it's okay to secede based on current political whims. The EU does not want that. Not now, after Brexit, while it's trying to appear tough and whatnot.

[Deleted]

So what are the the results? What's happening next?

Acording to the Catalonian govern 2 Million voted yes from a census of 5 million and a population of 7

But as I said:

"I don´t know what country could validate and recognice the counting. Part of the votes have been taken by the police, this morning a universal census was declared so the mess at hand is huge, some people have voted more than once, twice or even more times, in some places delegates just put the ballot box in the middle of the street and people started to pour votes, (No joking, I´ve actually seen that by myself) at the electoral table the ID´s weren´t even properly cheked and, according to the police, they cannot compare with the state´s census and the only thing they have are list that have been written in paper to verify duplications and null votes (wich, to be honest, is a task that would require days of work and a lot of people). All this without including that the counting is being done by separatist only and the part of the catalan goverment that thinks otherwise was excluded long ago this past months, so the about 40 % of the catalan goverment is not represented or doing anything or collaborating in anyway."

Either way, carles puigdemont has already declared that soon the procees of independece is going to move foward. On the 3rd of october the catalonian goverment wants a general strike and asked the spanish syndicates to join but it seems they refuse. Artc. 155 of the Spanish constitution has already been applied.

[Kellhound]

Oh, this is an academic discussion? I thought you were just being a smartass. My bad.

I studied politics, its always academic to me.

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Dude don't sell yourselves short USA has been around for almost a quarter millennia, it's more than achieved nation status by now lol. Hell you had your own identity before then hence part of the desire for independance.

The dictionary defines a nation as "a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory." the USA meets all that criteria.

Most Americans are becoming less likely to meet those, not more likely. The US is far too fractured to be a nation.

[Slant]

I studied politics, its always academic to me.

The trick is to bring the academic knowledge to the discussion without coming across as a know-it-all and spit out useless things that nobody outside a library gives a fuck about. It's a different language outside university and you're expected to adapt to it, not the other way around.

[Cynep]

You still alive in there? How are things in Ukraine?

Sorry for the late answer; I'm technically not in Ukraine anymore, my family and I have decided to remain in Donetsk where we have property and connections, instead of becoming refugees. No one likes refugees.

So, in Ukraine things are worse than I hoped for them when I was happy that they ousted that thief Yanukovich, the government that rode the Maidan wave has failed in my eyes. In DNR things about as I expected, we're just another shithole created by our imperialistic brothers. Still, you can live here, most people got some jobs and can feed their families, the war has died down and is limited to the demarcation line, our puppet government is probably doing better job than Ukrainian one if you account for heavy sanctions against us (we're completely cut from world banking system, I can't pay you unless you come here and take my cash, and vice versa)

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Well except that there was no coup in Spain

So if there will be a Maidan in Spain, you'll support Catalan rebels against Madrid fascists?

[Floopa]

after this, and the speech juncker gave about an "EU super state", i'm feeling even better about my decision to vote to leave the EU

it's just a shame other countries arent as lucky to have a proper democracy.

[Uzkin]

after this, and the speech juncker gave about an "EU super state", i'm feeling even better about my decision to vote to leave the EU

it's just a shame other countries arent as lucky to have a proper democracy.

Just wait until Scotland holds another independence referendum, this time without London's approval.

[Acidbaron]

So who thinks this is going to further escalate tomorrow when Madrid orders arrests of Catalan politicians.
Still no official EU response while not completely abnormal as one side is asking for it and the other is not, they don't want to get involved on a national level as that would set a dangerous precedent. However i see no other way forward then the EU sending in diplomats to calm the situation since Madrid has completely lost control over the situation and the politicians in Catalonia making political coin from it.

[Deleted]

after this, and the speech juncker gave about an "EU super state", i'm feeling even better about my decision to vote to leave the EU

it's just a shame other countries arent as lucky to have a proper democracy.

Is it democratic if as a Catalonian non-independent your repesentetives at the parlament don´t have nothing to say when the voting is done? (Wich compososes 40% of the Catalan Parlament) Is it democratic that only a coallition of independent parties gets to handle all the counting and doesn´t allow exterior supervision to be imparcial? Is it democratic to break the constitution that the mayority of the Catalan voted 40 years ago and not go through the way that the constitution has to offer to make a CCAA indepent? Is it democratic to contradict the law that not only was not issue from Madrid but from the "Tribunal Superior de Justicia Catalan"? Is it democratic if you coerce goverment officials to achive your own goals as was shown in Augost and September by Junqueras and Puigdemont?

I´m ok for a referemdum but what we saw in the 1st of October was far from that and if you call that democracy I feel real pity for your country that by the way it´s been already 1 year and a half and your representatives still have to negociate the exit and are delaying the very thing you voted.

[Floopa]

The EU functions to maintain the global political elite, and cares nothing for the people. The Lisbon Treaty was specifically incorporated into the European Charter of Fundamental Rights and into basic European Union law. The Spanish Guardia Civil on Sunday breached the following:

Article 1: The Right to Human Dignity
Article 6: The Right to Liberty or Security of Person
Article 11: Freedom of Expression and Information
Article 12: Freedom of Assembly and Association
Article 54: Prohibition of Abuse of Rights

I would argue that these were also breached:

Article 21: Non-discrimination
Article 22: Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Diversity

[Uzkin]

It seems that international and national practices are, in general, lacking and outdated when it comes to separatism: the right for self-determination is still far too often earned with blood, and the international support or opposition of it is gained not via some moral guidelines but via the selfish interests of the other countries. In today's world, it would thus seem necessary to establish a better, more clearly-defined set of UN-level norms about how the international community should judge and react to regional separatism under different circumstances.

For example, if a coup takes place in the target country should all its regions simply accept as their new leaders those who illegally seized the power or can they seek to separate from their fatherland? Or, at the other end of the spectrum, if the national government *is* a democratically-elected one and upholds the constitution is a given region nevertheless allowed to take separatist actions against the law if there is local support for it?

In the first scenario, it would seem natural that the global community should support the right for a regional self-determination. In the latter case, it gets more sketchy and thus some well-thought-out international practices should be established.

[Deleted]

The EU functions to maintain the global political elite, and cares nothing for the people. The Lisbon Treaty was specifically incorporated into the European Charter of Fundamental Rights and into basic European Union law. The Spanish Guardia Civil on Sunday breached the following:

Article 1: The Right to Human Dignity
Article 6: The Right to Liberty or Security of Person
Article 11: Freedom of Expression and Information
Article 12: Freedom of Assembly and Association
Article 54: Prohibition of Abuse of Rights

I would argue that these were also breached:

Article 21: Non-discrimination
Article 22: Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Diversity

Except all the treaties should respect the constituitions of each member states:

"Article 4

1. In accordance with Article 5, competences not conferred upon the Union in the Treaties remain with the Member States.

2. The Union shall respect the equality of Member States before the Treaties as well as their national identities, inherent in their fundamental structures, political and constitutional, inclusive of regional and local self-government. It shall respect their essential State functions, including ensuring the territorial integrity of the State, maintaining law and order and safeguarding national security. In particular, national security remains the sole responsibility of each Member State.

3. Pursuant to the principle of sincere cooperation, the Union and the Member States shall, in full mutual respect, assist each other in carrying out tasks which flow from the Treaties.

The Member States shall take any appropriate measure, general or particular, to ensure fulfilment of the obligations arising out of the Treaties or resulting from the acts of the institutions of the Union.

The Member States shall facilitate the achievement of the Union's tasks and refrain from any measure which could jeopardise the attainment of the Union's objectives."


All that the Spanish government could be lawful condemned is policy brutality. Article 4 completely ties the EU hands regarding Spain.

[Deleted]

The EU functions to maintain the global political elite, and cares nothing for the people. The Lisbon Treaty was specifically incorporated into the European Charter of Fundamental Rights and into basic European Union law. The Spanish Guardia Civil on Sunday breached the following:

Article 1: The Right to Human Dignity
Article 6: The Right to Liberty or Security of Person
Article 11: Freedom of Expression and Information
Article 12: Freedom of Assembly and Association
Article 54: Prohibition of Abuse of Rights

I would argue that these were also breached:

Article 21: Non-discrimination
Article 22: Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Diversity

Explain why Art 22 has been breached when Spain division of regional power is the most descentralized in all Europe and all CCAA have the right and protection of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Diversity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autono...uistic_regimes

[Haven]

So if there will be a Maidan in Spain, you'll support Catalan rebels against Madrid fascists?

Just for the irony alone, especially if they go all-out with molotovs and shit

[Deleted]

So who thinks this is going to further escalate tomorrow when Madrid orders arrests of Catalan politicians.
Still no official EU response while not completely abnormal as one side is asking for it and the other is not, they don't want to get involved on a national level as that would set a dangerous precedent. However i see no other way forward then the EU sending in diplomats to calm the situation since Madrid has completely lost control over the situation and the politicians in Catalonia making political coin from it.

There's very little left to escalate. When and if Madrid triggers the constitutional article that grants them powers to take "all measures necessary to compel the Community to meet said obligations, or to protect the abovementioned general interest", I suppose the Catalan government is dismissed and they'd have new elections. But they'll probably wait for the unilateral declaration of independence which will happen soon.
People will keep protesting, yes; but Madrid is not interested in stopping that anyway. Not sure if that counts as escalation, but it deepens the political crisis.

Madrid has lost the argument, if they ever had one, and any moral high ground they could have. But not control, I don't think: theirs is the constitutional trump card mentioned above. They just like to kick the can as they always do, and wait for things to magically fix themselves.
It's worth pointing out that Rajoy is governing in minority, so he's seeking support from the liberals and the socialists, to give any measure taken a semblance of legitimacy. He has the liberals, but the socialists have major reservations. Though some parties are calling for a motion of no confidence, it's unlikely to happen. He may very well go into snap elections, and get a majority (they're not overly popular, but the left parties are in a weak spot). A PP majority (or coalition with the liberals) would ensure the Catalan issue to deepen further, which sucks. All in all, the situation isn't looking any bright. But from Rajoy's perspective it looks like he's actually in control.

As for EU, I think they should remain silent. People, and the press, can worry all they want, and condemn violence if they like: I do too. But foreign governments don't have to meddle unless they're summoned by the party they're partners with: Spain. Unless they go into genocide, or war, or something alike, which is unlikely. Leave intervention and "democracy-spreading" to the US.

[Kellhound]

The trick is to bring the academic knowledge to the discussion without coming across as a know-it-all and spit out useless things that nobody outside a library gives a fuck about. It's a different language outside university and you're expected to adapt to it, not the other way around.

I do not care to lower myself to the vulgar vernacular of the commoners, I prefer more eloquent and correct communications.