Unrest in Spain: the Spanish government is taking control of the Catalan police force

[Tabrotar]

Sorry no one region cannot decide to just leave their country because there is something called laws. Which says that there´s no right of sedecion. Sorry to break it for you but international war will almost never trump internal aka the state law.
Otherwise the jews would be back into their borders before any of the wars which happend there.

[Deleted]

Constitution never trumped human rights, this include rights to self determination. Doesent matter what it says, they can attempt independence legitimately and it will be regarded as such on the international level.

The right to self-determination doesn't grantee the right to secede a union. The Catalan people voted 40 years ago to have their sovereignty tied with the rest of the Spanish people.
There is no country on earth supporting the Catalonian secession. So much for international legitimacy.

Edit: I think Maduro supports the cause. At least he does openly label the central government as dictatorial. I guess Venezuela is the standard for legitimacy

[minteK917]

Sorry no one region cannot decide to just leave their country because there is something called laws. Which says that there´s no right of sedecion. Sorry to break it for you but international war will almost never trump internal aka the state law.
Otherwise the jews would be back into their borders before any of the wars which happend there.

So how do we explain we went from 90 sovereign nation to 195? Constitution means nothing. If Taiwan could free itself from China completely, even if its against the PRC, doesent matter. Even now with PRC having its grip on Taiwan, Taiwan still has international support, doesent matter that a piece of paper says they belong to China. Its always the same, it doesent matter what a constitution says, if a territory wish to leave another, even if it has to do independence by force, it is legitimate to do so under international laws.

[Tabrotar]

Ah yes and because of that almost all newfounded states are on the verse of collapsing because splitting a nation into 2 ore more seperate pieces will ofc go oh so well for all of them...

[minteK917]

The right to self-determination doesn't grantee the right to secede a union. The Catalan people voted 40 years ago to have their sovereignty tied with the rest of the Spanish people.
There is no country on earth supporting the Catalonian secession. So much for international legitimacy.

You realize the European union already went over this? They support a referendum and would actual agree to a yes vote, but Catalonia would have to rejoin the European union as a new member, sounds like regular support to me lol.

[ranzino]

some 13 new england colonies also broke free from their motherland while not being entitled to do so. or does my memory of history lessons fail here ? hmm ?

[Allenseiei]

Moreso than the rest of the country perpetually deciding that the 8 million can never decide their own destiny. The constitution in question is akin to a marriage that you cannot get out of unless your partner agrees that you should be allowed to. And if said methaphorical partner is absolutely dependant on your earnings, why would s/he ever agree to that? Hence you would be his/her hostage indefinitely.

That is in no way democratic.

Spain is just as dependant on Catalonia's earnings, as Catalonia's dependend on Spain in sales. 90% of the Catalonian sales are in Spain.

Comparing this to marriage is not a good way. Since catalonia's oposition covers a little over 50% of the votes, which reject the independent movement. How can you attribute the standing of an individual in marriage, to millions of individuals who have contradicting standings? Will you do like in the UK? Where 49% of the population was ignored and forced to go along with the Brexit?
In catalonia is worse. The secessionists have mayority in congress but not mayority in votes. So more than 4 million people inside catalonia will be ignored, because they themselves can't change how the weights of votes go because the secessionists have been winning that way for years.

[Deleted]

You realize the European union already went over this? They support a referendum and would actual agree to a yes vote, but Catalonia would have to rejoin the European union as a new member, sounds like regular support to me lol.

Juncker continued what Barroso had established earlier: there is no automatic admission for an independent Catalonia (contrary to what the Catalonia elite would have you believe).
The stance on the referendum is however not supportive, or even concerned with it: it's an internal matter of Spain.

[Allenseiei]

You realize the European union already went over this? They support a referendum and would actual agree to a yes vote, but Catalonia would have to rejoin the European union as a new member, sounds like regular support to me lol.

They don't support the current referendum. It would need to be a referendum acoording to Spanish Law, which would first need to go thorugh a change in the constitution.

[ranzino]

Ah yes and because of that almost all newfounded states are on the verse of collapsing because splitting a nation into 2 ore more seperate pieces will ofc go oh so well for all of them...

Catalonia helps rest of Spain with their economy, ofc they are capable. there are smaller countries in europe, which are sovereign and do fine.

[minteK917]

Ah yes and because of that almost all newfounded states are on the verse of collapsing because splitting a nation into 2 ore more seperate pieces will ofc go oh so well for all of them...

As someone living in a country that did, yes it works fine for the one that didnt have to struggle in a war for it recently. The harder you try to stop it, with the most force you use, the worse it will get, wont get better. Had they given Catalonia a fair vote instantly, independence would have lost. Spain chose the stupid way, it will get worse. I can tell you as someone living in a country that had terrorist attack by some separatism, buckle up if you think ignore it will help lol. The harder the stance Madrid takes, the harder it will get.

[ranzino]

They don't support the current referendum. It would need to be a referendum acoording to Spanish Law, which would first need to go thorugh a change in the constitution.

EU's stance will change as soon Madrid oppresses Catalonia enough. EU does not like tyrannies.

[Allenseiei]

The problem is that the rigidity of Madrid makes it difficult to hold a good and orderly referendum. Madrid should have accepted such a referendum long ago. It would have been legal, with appointed officials, a party for the Yes, a party for the No, an "electoral" campaign with debates and then the people of Catalonia would have voted. And guess what? They may very well have voted No. And we would have a clear view of what Catalonia wants. But instead, Madrid is acting like a bully and pushes more and more Catalans towards independance. Because you don't want to remain in a country that negates your right to choose.

The rigidity of Madrid? The secessionists didn't go to congress to explain and ask for a change in the constitution and a referendum to do that. They imposed their ideas and threatened to go through with them regardless of the opinion of congress.
Negates your right to choose? Then how about the secessionists who negate the rights of speech, discussion, challenge Law by simply not abiding it, rush through procedures just so that the oposition in catalonia doesn't have time to make amendments? Who is negating who? The very catalonians are negating their own people their right to choose and debate.

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EU's stance will change as soon Madrid oppresses Catalonia enough. EU does not like tyrannies.

So you mean abiding law is a tyranny? Let me remind you, the secessionts have mayority in congress, but not in votes. The only reason they win elections is because they keep the region voting weights from ever changing.

The secessionists who negate the rights of speech, discussion, challenge Law by simply not abiding it, rush through procedures just so that the oposition in catalonia doesn't have time to make amendments? Who is negating who? The very catalonians are negating their own people their right to choose and debate. They are oppressing mayors who don't abide the independent movement.
Yes, Eu does not like tyrants, and the Catalonia goverment is a big one.

[Tabrotar]

So if i have a law which says : You have to let all people of the country vote ( not only the ones in said region) and then i enforce said law i´m in the wrong?

[Allenseiei]

Catalonia helps rest of Spain with their economy, ofc they are capable. there are smaller countries in europe, which are sovereign and do fine.

Except 90% of the sales are in Spain. They barely export outside of Spain since they can't compete. 99% of the companies in Catalonia are against the independent movement.
Catalonia also has prefferal treatment, refering to taxes and sovereign rights that all but two other regions don't have.

[Kuntantee]

Probs to Spain for protecting their territorial integrity.

[minteK917]

So you mean abiding law is a tyranny?

You realize the point of a tyran is that they have laws you must follow, even if they are against your self interest. Spain not giving regions constitutional right to self determination, is actually pretty close. Only what they do next determine what they are on this issue. If they decide to have a talk about it, change the constitution and allow a public referendum for the catalonian region to self determinate, then they are like the british ended up being in the end, no longer tyranny.

[ranzino]

....


So you mean abiding law is a tyranny?

The secessionists who negate the rights of speech, discussion, challenge Law by simply not abiding it, rush through procedures just so that the oposition in catalonia doesn't have time to make amendments? Who is negating who? The very catalonians are negating their own people their right to choose and debate.

abiding by slavery laws in USA was also not such a good idea, sorry. there is just no automatism of "established law = pink fluffy unicorns".
and for your last sentence: if those 7,5 million catalonians vote in favour of independence, the case itself would be settled.
terms of independence are another issue then.

[minteK917]

So if i have a law which says : You have to let all people of the country vote ( not only the ones in said region) and then i enforce said law i´m in the wrong?

Yes, you are breaking what the right to self determination is. If Madrid votes a law saying they abolish all propriety, its the same thing. Doesent matter if its now in the constitution, you are breaking the citizen right to their propriety. Even if 100% of the legislative voted in favor of it, its still breaking the citizen rights. They would be legitimate in burning down government buildings and arresting every last of their representative to preserve their right.

[ranzino]

Except 90% of the sales are in Spain. They barely export outside of Spain since they can't compete. 99% of the companies in Catalonia are against the independent movement.
Catalonia also has prefferal treatment, refering to taxes and sovereign rights that all but two other regions don't have.

nobody said independence means the end of travel and commerce with Spain.