Why is the abortion debate framed as pro-choice vs pro-life?

[Deleted]

It's only natural. If you ask why the anti-abortion side is called pro-life, the clear answer is, cause they're against killing babies. Then the pro-abortion side will automatically claim it's not life.

I was referring more to what the topic turned into; it's kind of morphed into a topic entitled "Abortion is acceptable but now we must discuss who actually gets to decide whether to do it."

[HHHGame78]

"Pro-Life" should be "Pro-Birth" because that is what it really is.

[Deleted]

Remaining pregnant.

You can't deal with being pregnant, therefore it's more responsible to kill the child?

[Halyon]

Deal with what? Raising a kid? There's still adoption.

I'll readily say I don't like adoption, it's unreliable, and I very much dislike children needlessly getting fucked over by the adoption system because prospective 'parents' are biased as fuck. But I support people's choice to do so. Adoption is however not an alternative to pregnancy, which has to be completed first. For some people, that is a huge contributor for why they choose to abort, or sometimes even have to abort.

And you keep making up excuses.

What excuses?

Sure. I think that's reasonable. I don't believe that life begins at conception, but I think it begins earlier than at birth. Different doctors when asked feel differently about abortion at certain stages, because it's just not clear at what point it can be considered a human being. My personal rule is, if it starts to look like a human being, it's a human being.

And here we are with inconsistancy. Earlier you said "it's killing a human being!", now you're 'unclear' when human being starts. You personally say when it looks like one. That's awfully shallow to determine something rather important. Looks alone don't determine humanity.

[Total Crica]

"Pro-Life" should be "Pro-Birth" because that is what it really is.

I have yet to find anyone willing to give birth in my stead, they are "pro-force-others-to-give-birth"

[Halyon]

You can't deal with being pregnant, therefore it's more responsible to kill the child?

It's not a child. It's a zygote/fetus. Also, killing is not murder. There's an important distinction between them, but people keep using kill instead of murder, then moving the goalpost later.

[Deleted]

You can't deal with being pregnant, therefore it's more responsible to kill the child?

Gonna play devil's advocate on this one for a sec: do you think it's *more* humane to force an unwilling mother to endure 9 months of unwanted pregnancy, giving birth to a child she doesn't want, resulting in the kid either being unwanted/unloved and suffering a shitty childhood or ending up in care or adopted which might end up being even worse? There is of course the possibility that adoption would result in them ending up with an absolutely wonderful family who will give them a great childhood and set them up for a fantastic life, but we all know that doesn't always happen.

[Total Crica]

You can't deal with being pregnant, therefore it's more responsible to kill the child?

You are welcome to deal with it in my stead since I am unable. You declined, however.

[Deleted]

You are welcome to deal with it in my stead since I am unable. You declined, however.

You are not unable. You are just unwilling.

[Deleted]

I have yet to find anyone willing to give birth in my stead, they are "pro-force-others-to-give-birth"

Honestly considering my wife and I have been fruitlessly trying to conceive for the past 4 years, if someone came up to me and said we could have a baby but I would have to carry it, I'd jump at the chance. I'm so desperate to be a dad that I would happily do that.

[Deleted]

I'll readily say I don't like adoption, it's unreliable

Yeah killing it is better.

I'm out.

[Total Crica]

Gonna play devil's advocate on this one for a sec: do you think it's *more* humane to force an unwilling mother to endure 9 months of unwanted pregnancy, giving birth to a child she doesn't want, resulting in the kid either being unwanted/unloved and suffering a shitty childhood or ending up in care or adopted which might end up being even worse? There is of course the possibility that adoption would result in them ending up with an absolutely wonderful family who will give them a great childhood and set them up for a fantastic life, but we all know that doesn't always happen.

As well as RISKING BOTH dying. When a woman doesn't WANT to remain pregnant, that cause ALOT of stress for them BOTH, and we ALL know it isn't going to survive if she doesn't.

[Deleted]

As well as RISKING BOTH dying. When a woman doesn't WANT to remain pregnant, that cause ALOT of stress for them BOTH, and we ALL know it isn't going to survive if she doesn't.

Obviously there have been cases where the mother died and the baby still survived, but as a core concept I agree with this.

[Total Crica]

You are not unable. You are just unwilling.

Unwilling = unable to deal with it

Do you think the stress of forcing me to do something I don't want to do is going to result in a healthy pregnancy for YOU to take care of IF it survives birth?

[Zeth Hawkins]

let's say a stranger needs a kidney, and you're a match. Should you be forced to donate that kidney against your will? We all agree that you shouldn't, right?

I agree with that. However, this is a flawed analogy. A more accurate situation would be:
1) Person A donates his/her kidney to Person B
2) Person A later decides that they want their kidney back
3) Person A kills Person B to take the kidney back

The uterus is successfully donated once fertilization occurs.

[donjn]

The vast, vast majority of abortions are performed within the first trimester. Appr. 89% of abortions happen before 12 weeks. What 'plenty'.

I was responding to a picture someone put up of basically an egg, saying there is no way that is human, as his argument. He dismissed the 11% that do not look like that.

11% is plenty. Average number of abortions per year is usually around 700,000. That means a whopping 77,000 late term abortions are done yearly. That is disgusting.

[Zeth Hawkins]

Yeah, the hypocrisy of small-government conservatives. They want less government, until they want more government...

One cannot reasonably argue that a person wanting laws against murder means that person is pro-big government.

[Total Crica]

The uterus is successfully donated once fertilization occurs.

No, I don't donate my uterus, it's still inside MY body and under MY ownership.

A fertilized egg MIGHT begin to use my uterus, but I don't want it to continue to do so, so I will flush it out so it can't use it anymore.

[Symphonic]

Pro-Life is absolutely 100% Anti-Choice. It is exactly how they explain it.

No it's not. Most who are Pro-life don't think abortion shouldn't be available. Abortion is an option for certain situations. Pro-life just wants people to treat the unborn babies as living human beings. When one is killed, don't just call it "tissue" or other things that devalue what it actually is... a baby. I imagine a lot of people are surprised to find out that before a baby is born it has fingers, toes, a brain, heart... well what do you know, it actually has everything a living person has!

There's a reason why women who miscarry a child are so devastated, and when people who abort act like it wasn't anything, it really depresses those individuals, because they felt the connection, they wanted this baby, and it's gone. These women do not need people telling them how you aborted your unwanted baby while they struggle with infertility and miscarriages. Show some respect to the life of an unborn baby.

[Deleted]

I was responding to a picture someone put up of basically an egg, saying there is no way that is human, as his argument. He dismissed the 11% that do not look like that.

11% is plenty. Average number of abortions per year is usually around 700,000. That means a whopping 77,000 late term abortions are done yearly. That is disgusting.

I don't mean to be heartless here, but from a purely utalitarian standpoint and comparing that figure to the world population, it's a drop in the ocean really, but still a significant number of kids who won't end up unwanted or in care, a significant number of people who don't feel like their lives would have been positively impacted by having a child, and a slightly lessened impact on the already-fairly-concerning overpopulation issue we face.