Should loot be made scarce again?

[Hitei]

Really? How about the millions that dropped right before the launch of crapaclysm? When the talent tree was changed, Dungeon finder, raid finder, etc.... Should there be an easy mode? Sure, but it shouldn't provide rewards that so even half as good as we have now. People are so god damn lazy these days and they dont want to work for anything. It's pathetic.

Uh.. Raid finder was implemented with DS at the very end of Cata, and it's largest sub drop was at the start, when 5-man content was tuned much higher than it ever was in Wrath. And Dungeon Finder was added in wrath like, half a year before Cata's prepatch.

Were you not around for people constantly dropping out of LFD because they got Occulus?

[Queen of Hamsters]

Content Draught before Cata launched. Dungeon Finder was in before Cata(It happened during Wrath(Height of it actually so..WRONG). Raid finder happened at the end of Cata. Talent tree did need changes, it was still kinda dumb pre Cata.

Indeed.

Add to that the fact that the raiding scene has remained pretty stable in size, and one understands why his temper tantrum is the only pathetic thing in this thread. And based in factually incorrect points at that.

[Aoyi]

Not in a modern MMO. Players need to feel a steady sense of progression. Even though there are a lot of options for gearing today, you are still most likely to be better geared as a raider than as someone who only does questing or farming resources for tokens. The tokens and gear you get from WQs are lower item level at their base and although they do have a chance at titanforging, likely will never catch up to a raider's level. I have no problem with mythic plus dungeon giving good gear. If you're running a +10 these days, its the same as doing heroic raiding. Hell, you get high enough in those keys and its harder than mythic raiding once you reach a certain level. Before anyone chimes in with the "only around 150 guilds have mythic KJ thing", let me remind you how easy mythic Goroth is or how few people can do a +20. And frankly, I don't care if some non-raider gets a higher item level than me. It has no effect on my ability to enjoy content.

[RoKPaNda]

Feeling like you have to repeat content that is no longer relevant for you is exactly what Ion said they did not want in the dev interview yesterday. A reasonable cap on it would be just fine imo.

Yeah no. You don't have to repeat content that is no longer relevant to you. You can choose to do that but as a Mythic raider you have zero reason to feel that you have to. That's a personal choice that you're making.

But yes a "reasonable cap." would be 5~ ilevels below current tier Mythic base. It's not necessary, but if they did it, that's what it would be.

[nlc]

IMO, it's good for the game that people can gear up to enter the latest raid tier pretty quickly especially for alts. But I think there is some imbalance in the higher end rewards. For example why is the best gear in the game (excepting tier sets) available from mythic+? Is zerging a +10 dungeon really deserving of a greater reward than a mythic avatar kill? I don't think so.

[Teri]

970 base-itemlevel drops will be scarce in Antorus anyway, only from 1 boss, and I think Mythic+ chest loot probably is like 960-965 from a +15.

And then the 3rd category of high itemlevel is pvp-elite gear over 2400 rating.

I don't think 930 boss world boss loot is crazy when normal antorus will drop the same. Also most world boss relics seem utlity traits.

I really hope 8.0 won't have Legion's Legendary system however.

Also hoping for some tweaking on the socket/leech/speed/avoidance situation, and versatility in general.

[RoKPaNda]

Really? How about the millions that dropped right before the launch of crapaclysm? When the talent tree was changed, Dungeon finder, raid finder, etc.... Should there be an easy mode? Sure, but it shouldn't provide rewards that so even half as good as we have now. People are so god damn lazy these days and they dont want to work for anything. It's pathetic.





I never said raids were not difficult. However their rewards are shit when someone can afk through LFR and get better gear due to RNG circumstances.




I care about it and no, you could not hit normal raid gear levels the day you hit cap in WoLK.

1) Yeah content drought was a thing. You should probably look into that.
2) Nobody is getting better gear than you are in LFR. Just lol no. Once upon a time I saw a screenshot of a nighthold trinket getting a max TF. It's not a common occurrence, it's not even a rare occurrence. It's winning the lottery. And nobody is an LFR hero that's decked out in high titanforges. Go ahead, find me some armories that show LFR heroes completely decked out in current Mythic level gear FROM LFR.
3) Yes you could get 10m level gear the day you hit cap in WoLK or at least damn close to it. You had to no-life the shit out of that day, but you could do it. You've been able to do that in Cata, MoP, WoD, and now Legion. We've been able to do that for far longer than we were not.

[HuxNeva]

To a degree, YES. the way we can gear up now is fucking stupid. You can literally gear up to 900+ the same day you hit level 110.

Serious question: how much effort in terms of hours played during catch-up phases do you feel it should take past hitting max level to re-roll and gear up for raiding with your guild by the next raid tier? Right now, a typical HC guild will be going into Anthorus somewhere between 930-940 equipped. So you would like to get somewhere their on that re-roll so as not to drag your team down. Keep in mind that gearing time investment is by nature exponential, so the 800 - 900 is going to take significantly less effort then 900-910 which in turn will take significantly less effort than going 910-920 equipped and so on and on.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

If you have to ask that, you don't understand how the game works. The best loot is very scarce. Shitty loot is not. This is MUCH better than when dungeons dropped 40 items and 38 of them were useless for every single spec and class in the game, and two were better than MC gear.

[Rudkobing]

Should loot be made scarce again?

No, I remember the bad, old days. So the answer is still no.

[wombinator04]

No, it's fine as it is. It's been like this for years now, it's not an issue.

What should be made scarce again is legendaries.

[Wyattbw09]

^ title.
scarce loot = more value on loot = feels better to get loot.

right now, there are a million ways to get purps/high ilvl. and a problem i see ppl bring up is that gear gets replaced very quickly.
In previous expansions, the only way to get 'high end' gear was by gradually going through more difficult content. Now i can sit back and farm argunite every day and feel semi-satisfied with my character's warforges/titanforges.
Is there simply TOO much gear in the game? (raidfinder/norm/h/myth/myth+/titanforged/warforged versions, relinquished...)

People naturally take paths which make it easier to gear, so should some of those paths be throttled?

what do u guys think?

It feels pretty good to me whenever I get a upgrade. Sometimes when you are farming something that is really rare you don't fell really good when you get it, you just feel like its about damn time.

I'd rather feel pretty good for getting semi regular upgrades then feel crappy most of the time for walking away empty handed.

[hyphnos]

Plentiful loot that is mostly useless is the same thing as scarce loot so the question doesn't matter.

[Lucetia]

I mean, ToS Mythic drops 930 loot besides KJ and I'm already 945 equipped with 3 bosses to go, which IMO is absolutely absurd.

This here is a good example of why loot isn't everything. Even by overgearing the boss you guys are steal struggling. If the loot dropped is 930 then it's usually tuned for 5-10 ivls lower, yet you (and I'm assuming on average) your raid is approximately 15-20 ilvls higher. Now this isn't me trying to make fun of how your progression is. This is just showing that high ilvls aren't always what the player base thinks it is and having more loot and high titanforging isn't harming anything. It's the player base who think some fictitious number on gear has meaning and that if others are as high as them or higher while doing different activities is a bad thing.

- - - Updated - - -

Should loot be made scarce again?

Sure. You let me know how a Normal/Heroic 10 man group getting 1 piece of loot enjoys that. Or how a 25 man group gets 1-2 pieces of loot and same with Mythic. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't go over well. Since back in previous expansions that people praise it was basically 1 piece of loot per 20 man.

[Arainie]

Yeah no. You don't have to repeat content that is no longer relevant to you. You can choose to do that but as a Mythic raider you have zero reason to feel that you have to. That's a personal choice that you're making.

But yes a "reasonable cap." would be 5~ ilevels below current tier Mythic base. It's not necessary, but if they did it, that's what it would be.

There's a fine line between having to and feeling like you have to. Everything is optional, you don't even have to play WoW. Feeling like you have to do something to be optimal is a completely different matter, and it's fairly bad design IMO. Irrelevant content granting AP I have no qualms with considering AP is not a limited resource, but farming that war/titanforged CoF or tier piece from old content is not a sane design.

[Deleted]

Change would be difficult for people to adapt, but it would ultimately be for the best.

I think GW2 has a great model with ascended gear and i wish WoW would take ideas from it on how it's aquired.

This would require the devs to actually bother to design an all around fun and rewarding game in all it's facets, rather than just raiding. Also, raiding needs scaling back.
Yes, raiding is the only thing WoW does reasonably well, but they have to stop funneling everything to it.

To be more specific, everything doesn't need to drop from the raid or from the daily area, only parts. Have different parts drop from different types of PvE content. Have each content piece have its own progression system and rewards.

How this works on GW2, is that the best rings, trinkets and capes can be aquired from the daily vendor area through doing/grinding the activities there. Also, not just a single one. Let there be variety, maybe with different pieces coming from different areas. Scale it with each tier so theres a reason to come back.
Weapons have a chance to drop from raids and dungeons, but they drop tokens aswell. These tokens can be used In great quantities to buy the regular gear from raid/dungeon sets.

The forge should actually be useful to turn items into crafting materials with acording rarity. Crafting the best weapons in the game shoud be possible by using rare materials from the forge.

This is game design, not the cop out we have today of: Go to daily area and easily get a full set of free epics, and now raid or die!
Theres a mix of content that will be rewarding to do, with a mix of RNG with progressive hard work rewards.

More systems can and should be implemented, but i find it amazing how GW2 can have such an interesting design and WoW is a simpletons game. It really upsets me. These devs are closed in a cubicle and aren't trying to do anything. It IS time to stir the pot. Raid or die has to end. I say this as a mythic raider btw. It doesn't matter, i prefer to have fun playing the game than raiding and beeing forced into a non rewarding AP grind and RNG fest.

[Duckypoo]

Were you not around for people constantly dropping out of LFD because they got Occulus?

I remember it well. They were lazy trash. Occ was never hard.

[Magnagarde]

Considering there are multiple sources of loot(4 different difficulties per raid, bonus rolls, M+ runs, weekly challenger chest loot awards and world bosses), I actually do believe that less loot should be awarded per boss killed.

[Duckypoo]

Serious question: how much effort in terms of hours played during catch-up phases do you feel it should take past hitting max level to re-roll and gear up for raiding with your guild by the next raid tier? Right now, a typical HC guild will be going into Anthorus somewhere between 930-940 equipped. So you would like to get somewhere their on that re-roll so as not to drag your team down. Keep in mind that gearing time investment is by nature exponential, so the 800 - 900 is going to take significantly less effort then 900-910 which in turn will take significantly less effort than going 910-920 equipped and so on and on.

Well shit, I'm almost ready for those HC guilds then and I haven't done shit as far as raiding. Just world quests and RF and I'm at 928. I didn't work hard for any of my gear. It's a joke and I say that as an altoholic. I used to like to gear up my alts. It felt good to get a new piece of gear and motivated me to push that alt a little farther. Now it's just doing a few WQ's and I'm done. Also, not everyone raids so the catch up mechanics really alter the game play for those who don't.

[Arainie]

This here is a good example of why loot isn't everything. Even by overgearing the boss you guys are steal struggling. If the loot dropped is 930 then it's usually tuned for 5-10 ivls lower, yet you (and I'm assuming on average) your raid is approximately 15-20 ilvls higher. Now this isn't me trying to make fun of how your progression is. This is just showing that high ilvls aren't always what the player base thinks it is and having more loot and high titanforging isn't harming anything. It's the player base who think some fictitious number on gear has meaning and that if others are as high as them or higher while doing different activities is a bad thing.

We "struggle" because we raid 6 hours a week with no out-of-raid requirements as opposed to the average 10-12h. Only 4 guilds raiding two nights with a combined 7-9 hours have managed to clear the content yet so yeah. Our raid average is 939, and if you believe the later part of Mythic ToS is tuned for 920 you might want to check on that again. Most guilds killing KJ after the first 20 hardcore raiding kills have been 935-940 on average with the very first kill by Method being 934 (and AFK R post-fix at 933)!

A newsflash for those who don't raid might be that raiding content is tuned with titanforging and artifact traits in mind. With the base item level dropped not many guilds would ever make it through. Gear is by no means everything, it takes time to progress through a boss regardless of whether you have the gear or not since most mechanics in ToS are punishing to the degree of death or wipe on failure. However, fact remains that some of the best items are still obtained in old raids through Titanforging and I reiterate that I believe that is horrible design.