Jail time for geriatric pronouns.

[Dovashy]

Ihave learned that most 'discussion' with people such as yourself in the real world dont lead to anythign. Im not trying to be mean or say that my opinion is correct and you are wrong. I just know that neither of us ever change our minds, so after previous experiences, i generally tend to avoid transgender people in real life.

I consider that a shame. Most of us don't get all bent outta shape, no need to feel like you're stepping on eggshells. I'm...fairly new to this, but even before just treat someone else like a person and you're golden. Someone's gender is irrelevant. It shouldn't stop one from holding a conversation or having varied interests.

[ellieg]

I teach 40+ kids in an alternative school. It's not in my contract to teach someone who is presumedly a grown ass man on something he should know before he attempts to discuss trans people.

I even pointed you in the right direction, but I'm not going to wade through a bunch of Paul McHugh quotes, Federalist blog posts, and misquoted research to arrive at the basic point WPATH and every major medical association in the country has been making. Look. It. Up.


"If genders are just social constructs, why pretend to rebel against them, while also conforming to the gender role of the person you are trying to be?"

You presuppose I view gender entirely as a construct, you pretend I'm "rebelling" against something, and you pretend I'm "conforming" to anything beyond what makes me happy.

This is why I don't take you seriously.

If you are born a male, why not do anythign u want but still be called sir? Thats all im asking. if you are male, but prefer to be called she, you are saying you want society to recognize you as the opposite gender. Thats the only thing i accused you of 'presupposing'. you brought gender into this by demanding to be referred to as she, instead of him.

- - - Updated - - -

I consider that a shame. Most of us don't get all bent outta shape, no need to feel like you're stepping on eggshells. I'm...fairly new to this, but even before just treat someone else like a person and you're golden. Someone's gender is irrelevant. It shouldn't stop one from holding a conversation or having varied interests.

You mentioned ppl being quiet and never talking about this in real life cause we'd be too afraid to or something. Thats why i mentioned that i no longer say anything about it in public. Because it has lead to nowhere for me.

[GreenGoldSharpie]

If you are born a male, why not do anythign u want but still be called sir? Thats all im asking. if you are male, but prefer to be called she, you are saying you want society to recognize you as the opposite gender.

Society already does. Legally and socially, by the way. It's quite nice, thankyouverymuch. You already lost this one. What I'm saying to you is trans people are not here to answer your questions, and I'm not all that concerned what YOU call me. Ever think you could, I dunno, look up what actual trans people, and those who treat us, have to say instead of asking random trans people? Why do I have to share my life and feelings with you to find validity in your eyes, anyway? Awfully demanding.

Thats the only thing i accused you of 'presupposing'. you brought gender into this by demanding to be referred to as she, instead of him.

Yeah, no. Try answering for what you said.

[ellieg]

Society already does. Legally and socially, by the way. It's quite nice, thankyouverymuch. You already lost this one. What I'm saying to you is trans people are not here to answer your questions, and I'm not all that concerned what YOU call me. Ever think you could, I dunno, look up what actual trans people, and those who treat us, have to say instead of asking random trans people? Why do I have to share my life and feelings with you to find validity in your eyes, anyway? Awfully demanding.


Yeah, no. Try answering for what you said.

This is why i dont normally debate this. I HAVE read into both sides of the argument. Im asking for your personal opinions on this so i can learn more. What have i 'already lost'?

You arent concerned what youre called but youre cool with a law that punishes people for calling someone the "WRONG" gender pronoun.

Trans people arent here to answer my questions? Thats perfectly fine. I really hope we do find common ground with all of this non discussion we are having.

[Dovashy]

You mentioned ppl being quiet and never talking about this in real life cause we'd be too afraid to or something. Thats why i mentioned that i no longer say anything about it in public. Because it has lead to nowhere for me.

What I meant is that people's opinions on stuff like this aren't usually so vocal in a real-life. As far as feeling you shouldn't have a dialogue about it?
That's understandable. Though it's hardly something to feel you can't or shouldn't do. Most people are just that, people. We all have struggles, hopes and wishes....because we're all human. So unless you're planning on actually doing something intimate with that person, what gender they are is irrelevant.

[josykay]

This doesn't only apply to transgender people.

"preferred pronoun" means any pronoun the person wants, which means that otherkin and such are also included :P

To be fair, it doesn't really matter. The moment, you choose, to insult or mock the person, who is your patient, you failed miserably on your job. And that is essentially the only reason why using the wrong pronoums on purpose is done. To mock, insult, and devalue a person. By doing so, you dismiss a person's identity (struggles) and claim, they are wrong, and worthless.

[therayeffect]

While I'm not sure if this will hold up in the Supreme Court, I think people are confusing the two general categories of transgender people. On one hand, you have people with gender dysphoria who have 6 or 12+ months of therapy and interviews as well as other medical professionals to back up their claim. These people I have no issue with calling them by the name they wish and he or she. I'm actually very supportive of them getting realignment surgery and all the help they can need since GD seems pretty vicious. On the other hand, you have the teenage dumblr users who think gender is something they can switch with a flick of a wrist and call themselves potato-kin or attack-helicopter-kin and other completely made up shit. Gender is fluid but it's fluid like glass perhaps in that change can generally be pretty slow and not something you can just change on a whim as you please. I can't throw on a dress and be a woman one day and a big hairy man the next by putting on a flannel. If it was so easy to change, I don't think people with gender dysphoria would have such a hard time with it. That's my 2cents.

[Jilor]

I have learned that most 'discussion' with people such as yourself in the real world dont lead to anythign. Im not trying to be mean or say that my opinion is correct and you are wrong. I just know that neither of us ever change our minds, so after previous experiences, i generally tend to avoid transgender people in real life.

I think it's kind of funny to say you tend to avoid transgender people in real life. Ok, well, that's a great thought... but there's a lot more of us than people seem to think. The original estimate was 0.3% and more recent estimates has it closer to 0.6%. In other words, in a statistically perfect world, six out of every thousand unique individuals you encounter are transgender. We work as many different professions and many of us pass perfectly well. In fact, since I have gone full time, not once have I been misgendered. And you have no way of preparing for me, because I'm a flight attendant. Even worse for you, we have a captain who is transgender and nearly every major airline that operates flights anywhere in the US does as well (I should know, I'm friends with many of them). Add to that that quite a number of flight attendants fall in the LGBT categories as it is a generally more accepting culture and generally the punishment for mistreating us on a plane is a felony. And yes, that includes misgendering us anything that can affect the duties of a flight attendant is punishable by up to 20 years of prison and fines of up to $250,000 and the first amendment won't protect you from that federal code (Title 49).

However, I know (or am aware of) transgender people in many other professions too including healthcare, teachers, retail, lawyers, TV, movies and much more. There are pretty solid chances you have interacted with a transgender person. The numbers vary a bit, but the estimate is you will INTERACT with (not just pass by) somewhere around 80,000-100,000 unique people in your life time. Of course, then you factor it's likely more if you live in a big city and possibly less if you live in a small town. How much you travel, how social you are, how many places you go where you may interact with more unique people than average, etc. Regardless, unless you live in the middle of nowhere and never interact with people, it's a pretty solid bet you have interacted with a transgender person whom you didn't know was transgender. And unless you wish to avoid ever flying anywhere, shopping anywhere or using healthcare, it's pretty hard to just blanket avoid transgender people.

For the record, I'm not mad at you or anything. I get you have a different opinion and I really don't mind. My great-grandmother was a really good woman in life and I never saw her mistreat anyone, but she was raised during a time where the 'n*****' was just what small town white people used. So, of course, up until her passing, it would still slip. It wasn't all the time, but it was still there. I don't know how old you are, but it's just possible your beliefs are so heavily ingrained that they are likely to never change. Instead, I would just ask you to think like this... if you are a good person, why would you want to mistreat another person? Maybe you don't understand their life and that's fine. But just because I've never read the Quran or been to South America doesn't mean I will treat Muslims and people from Brazil poorly. I'm sure they use titles or words I'm unfamiliar with, but that doesn't affect my life and to pretend like treating them with respect does is rather a silly notion. If you are on your own time, then just walk away. If you're at work and feel uncomfortable, you can always ask another worker to help rather than mistreat them. I am not in the force bakers to bake cakes group. Just that I'd rather you ask for assistance from a co-worker than to say rude or hateful things. Because surely it takes more time to insult someone (even if you don't see it as that) than it does if you simply completed your business and moved on. We don't have to be best friends, it's just simple logistics that I serve my customers and move on, regardless what weird or annoying thing they may be doing. Where as, if I stopped and started giving a customer a hard time, more people will be involved and it's just not worth the hassle.

It's really ok to just move through life and let others do the same.

[GreenGoldSharpie]

This is why i dont normally debate this. I HAVE read into both sides of the argument. Im asking for your personal opinions on this so i can learn more. What have i 'already lost'?

You haven't read anything. Of that I'm certain. If you had you'd have already read a bunch of accounts and personal opinions of how trans people feel and view their experiences. One more isn't going to change anything.

You arent concerned what youre called but youre cool with a law that punishes people for calling someone the "WRONG" gender pronoun.

Again, you presuppose my meaning. My support for this law has to do with how elderly people are treated in vulnerable situations. I'd have the same problem with any sort of verbal abuse of such people.

Trans people arent here to answer my questions? Thats perfectly fine. I really hope we do find common ground with all of this non discussion we are having.

I feel like I should welcome you to the first representation of what minorities actually say to one another about situations exactly like this. Just because I acknowledge I'm trans doesn't mean I'm a trans ambassador. The whole point I mentioned I'm a teacher is because my kids haven't clocked me, and should they ever be any discussion on the issue it'll only be because we have an established prior relationship and it happens during the course of our normal interactions. You don't have that prior relationship, and I simply don't feel the need to put myself out there to make my point.

[ellieg]

What I meant is that people's opinions on stuff like this aren't usually so vocal in a real-life. As far as feeling you shouldn't have a dialogue about it?
That's understandable. Though it's hardly something to feel you can't or shouldn't do. Most people are just that, people. We all have struggles, hopes and wishes....because we're all human. So unless you're planning on actually doing something intimate with that person, what gender they are is irrelevant.

Thank you for being calm with me. Im really not trying to be mean or an ass. Just literally wanted opinions. I could care less what gender someone is. But when someone looks like a dude, and they have a penis, and i call them sir, and then they require that i recognize them as an opposite gender, thats where my problem is. If a dude has bigger arms than me, an adams apple, and is standing at 6'4 but in a dress, it feels wrong to me to call them her (im purposely using an exaggerated example here). I know its disrespectful not to call them her, but to me it feels wrong. So thats why i said that i usually avoid them. It will just cause needless controversy.

[GreenGoldSharpie]

You remind me of an acquaintance of mine. I remember we were having a discussion about child psychology. She made a pretty outlandish statement and then when I asked her what her evidence was, she scoffed and she said "It's not my job to educate you"

Now thats a meme among my circle of friends, because of how fucking douchey it is to act like you are put upon to engage in a discussion with someone.

/triggered

I'm sure I'm soooo triggered. I'm not acting "put upon." I'm refusing to share my personal experiences with gender dysphoria. You smarmily saying I'm triggered means this is bothering you.

[Jilor]

You remind me of an acquaintance of mine. I remember we were having a discussion about child psychology. She made a pretty outlandish statement and then when I asked her what her evidence was, she scoffed and she said "It's not my job to educate you"

Now thats a meme among my circle of friends, because of how fucking douchey it is to act like you are put upon to engage in a discussion with someone.

/triggered

While I'm not defending them or you, it's worth noting, there are far more available resources through a simple Google search than some random person on MMO-Champ will give you. Consider the fact that just because someone is transgender does not instantly make them a scholar, researcher, scientist, biologist or doctor. While a transgender person may have more experience with it than someone who is not, I would think if you truly wanted to educate yourself, a random person on MMO-Champ is not the answer. In that aspect, that Google search may indeed be worth far more.

[ellieg]

I think it's kind of funny to say you tend to avoid transgender people in real life. Ok, well, that's a great thought... but there's a lot more of us than people seem to think. The original estimate was 0.3% and more recent estimates has it closer to 0.6%. In other words, in a statistically perfect world, six out of every thousand unique individuals you encounter are transgender. We work as many different professions and many of us pass perfectly well. In fact, since I have gone full time, not once have I been misgendered. And you have no way of preparing for me, because I'm a flight attendant. Even worse for you, we have a captain who is transgender and nearly every major airline that operates flights anywhere in the US does as well (I should know, I'm friends with many of them). Add to that that quite a number of flight attendants fall in the LGBT categories as it is a generally more accepting culture and generally the punishment for mistreating us on a plane is a felony. And yes, that includes misgendering us anything that can affect the duties of a flight attendant is punishable by up to 20 years of prison and fines of up to $250,000 and the first amendment won't protect you from that federal code (Title 49).

However, I know (or am aware of) transgender people in many other professions too including healthcare, teachers, retail, lawyers, TV, movies and much more. There are pretty solid chances you have interacted with a transgender person. The numbers vary a bit, but the estimate is you will INTERACT with (not just pass by) somewhere around 80,000-100,000 unique people in your life time. Of course, then you factor it's likely more if you live in a big city and possibly less if you live in a small town. How much you travel, how social you are, how many places you go where you may interact with more unique people than average, etc. Regardless, unless you live in the middle of nowhere and never interact with people, it's a pretty solid bet you have interacted with a transgender person whom you didn't know was transgender. And unless you wish to avoid ever flying anywhere, shopping anywhere or using healthcare, it's pretty hard to just blanket avoid transgender people.

For the record, I'm not mad at you or anything. I get you have a different opinion and I really don't mind. My great-grandmother was a really good woman in life and I never saw her mistreat anyone, but she was raised during a time where the 'n*****' was just what small town white people used. So, of course, up until her passing, it would still slip. It wasn't all the time, but it was still there. I don't know how old you are, but it's just possible your beliefs are so heavily ingrained that they are likely to never change. Instead, I would just ask you to think like this... if you are a good person, why would you want to mistreat another person? Maybe you don't understand their life and that's fine. But just because I've never read the Quran or been to South America doesn't mean I will treat Muslims and people from Brazil poorly. I'm sure they use titles or words I'm unfamiliar with, but that doesn't affect my life and to pretend like treating them with respect does is rather a silly notion. If you are on your own time, then just walk away. If you're at work and feel uncomfortable, you can always ask another worker to help rather than mistreat them. I am not in the force bakers to bake cakes group. Just that I'd rather you ask for assistance from a co-worker than to say rude or hateful things. Because surely it takes more time to insult someone (even if you don't see it as that) than it does if you simply completed your business and moved on. We don't have to be best friends, it's just simple logistics that I serve my customers and move on, regardless what weird or annoying thing they may be doing. Where as, if I stopped and started giving a customer a hard time, more people will be involved and it's just not worth the hassle.

It's really ok to just move through life and let others do the same.

Thank you for being calm too. Im not trying to be bigotted. Im not saying i will avoid an airline if i believe there is a transgender working there. I'm just saying if you are the type of person to go by a pronoun i dont believe in, then im just going to limit my conversation with you. I dont think transgenders are bad people, i just feel like im lying to myself if i call you somethign different than what i believe you are. im not saying thats right, just saying thats how i am.

[GreenGoldSharpie]

I wasn't saying you were triggered, I was saying I was triggered.

I know you are. I mean, you did completely miss my point, and tried to compare me refusing to share my personal experiences with a child psychologist making an intellectual point you disagreed with.

[GreenGoldSharpie]

While I'm not defending them or you, it's worth noting, there are far more available resources through a simple Google search than some random person on MMO-Champ will give you. Consider the fact that just because someone is transgender does not instantly make them a scholar, researcher, scientist, biologist or doctor. While a transgender person may have more experience with it than someone who is not, I would think if you truly wanted to educate yourself, a random person on MMO-Champ is not the answer. In that aspect, that Google search may indeed be worth far more.

Thank you. I know I'm being hard on them, but trying to pry someone's personal experiences with an issue and then calling it "douchey" when they don't is a pretty shitty thing to do, IMO.

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It wasn't an argument against you, I was just telling you that your phrasing triggered me and reminded me of a douchey person
Also she wasn't a child psychologist.

Keep backpedaling. I'm pretty sure we all caught your drift.

[Jilor]

Thank you for being calm too. Im not trying to be bigotted. Im not saying i will avoid an airline if i believe there is a transgender working there. I'm just saying if you are the type of person to go by a pronoun i dont believe in, then im just going to limit my conversation with you. I dont think transgenders are bad people, i just feel like im lying to myself if i call you somethign different than what i believe you are. im not saying thats right, just saying thats how i am.

And, while I do not speak for the whole human race (or even just transgender people), that's pretty much my thing. If you disagree with it, cool, feel free to just move on. The people who cause a scene, they're just wasting part of their life and generally won't accomplish anything positive. Plenty I disagree with, but if I'm not in a realistic place to change someone's mind, so be it. The great part of being in a world that is rapidly approaching eight billion people, is that I can always find someone else to chat with and something else to do. So, if you handle it by simply walking away, I think that's just fine and there's nothing wrong with you choosing to believe in what you believe in as long as no one is harmed.

[Freighter]

Seems pretty stupid to me to force people to say miss to someone that's a guy...

[GreenGoldSharpie]

Seems pretty stupid to me to force people to say miss to someone that's a guy...

Seems to me we shouldn't be treating elderly patients with anything but respect.

[Dovashy]

Thank you for being calm with me. Im really not trying to be mean or an ass. Just literally wanted opinions. I could care less what gender someone is. But when someone looks like a dude, and they have a penis, and i call them sir, and then they require that i recognize them as an opposite gender, thats where my problem is. If a dude has bigger arms than me, an adams apple, and is standing at 6'4 but in a dress, it feels wrong to me to call them her (im purposely using an exaggerated example here). I know its disrespectful not to call them her, but to me it feels wrong. So thats why i said that i usually avoid them. It will just cause needless controversy.

It's quite alright. Everyone is different, and what I hope you might come to realize is that someone doesn't choose that sorta thing. Although perhaps you already know that, which I believe is the case. Now, as for what you've said....well, I'm friends with several transgender individuals, and I'm also dating one of them. ~

People come in all different sorts, and society has a very specific mindset on what a male or female is. It's a shame...but I digress. Just remember that no matter ones gender, Their looks or their mannerisms, everyone is their own person. You don't need to even accept that, but a smile and a helpful gesture can go a long way to making someone's day.

[Freighter]

Seems to me we shouldn't be treating elderly patients with anything but respect.

You can treat someone with respect without engaging in their silly games.