The Brexit aftermath thread

[Elegiac]

We do things differently than you do

Last thing: I'm not arguing my position based on being American, because I grew up in a Westminster system and have first hand experiences with its failings. Y'all invaded 90% of the world and still seem surprised when people manage to produce improvements to the system you exported. Little England indeed.

[Pann]

They've had a clear manifesto since 2017. Which includes, and always has included, a notion that any deal they did agree with the EU would go back to the people. That alone is a much better way to clear this impasse than Boris's attempt to ride roughshod over everyone and just let the deadline pass to get a no-deal outcome without debate or scrutiny or any one making an actual decision on it but him.

That is completely untrue, the word referendum appears twice in their 2017 manifesto, first in the line; Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first and once more in a section completely unrelated to Brexit; Labour opposes a second Scottish independence referendum.

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upl...festo-2017.pdf

The policy that any deal would be put back to the people has only come to light in the last couple of months.

[Ashenfury]

So...there's no factually defensible reason to support the UK leaving the EU. Did I stutter the first time?

Also, do you people seriously still think a Norway+ relationship is on the table? You'll be lucky to get the same consideration Canada gets considering how many bridges y'all have burned across the Channel and the Atlantic.

Just to be clear, I'm not from the UK and I think Brexit is a really stupid idea. My point is that is "factually defensible" would depend on your goal conditions. What is factually better, a well paid job or a low stress job?

As for if the UK still can get "Norway+"... well, I'm guessing that it could happen eventually. I think any negotiations will be made more difficult by the unrealistic expectations that were set during the Brexit campaign.

[Elegiac]

Of the many nations that get to lecture us about imperialism with good reason, the US is not one of them.

Cool. I'm a naturalised American citizen that comes from a former British colony.

Don't lecture me about imperialism.

[Gibblewink]

The big problem with the UK parliament as it stands today is that it doesn't seem to have the mechanisms to handle a deeply divisive issue that does not follow party lines.
Whereas the nearly automatic reaction in at least some continental parliaments is to seek a national compromise in order to deal with potential crisis like Brexit, the UK didn't get to faint attempts at this until earlier this year.

[Jessicka]

*looks at the Democrats having opened a multitude of legal inquiries into the sitting administration and continually advancing their legislative agenda in spite of known roadblocks*

The fact that I'm actually having to defend the Democratic Party as an example of how one might actually be an opposition party is pathetic, but so is Brexit.

Well thankfully we're at a point of questioning the wisdom and faith of the government, not whether what they're doing is straight up illegal.

[Northern Goblin]

That is completely untrue, the word referendum appears twice in their 2017 manifesto, first in the line; Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first and once more in a section completely unrelated to Brexit; Labour opposes a second Scottish independence referendum.

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upl...festo-2017.pdf

The policy that any deal would be put back to the people has only come to light in the last couple of months.

This is actually somewhat correct. The PLP didn't push for a PV/2R until their conference in 2018 (IIRC) Corbyn has only started adopting it in recent months.

The original Labour plan at the last GE was to negotiate Brexit and put it to Parliament, which was a shot at the Tories who originally wanted to pass the WA without it being in the Commons.

[Jessicka]

That is completely untrue, the word referendum appears twice in their 2017 manifesto, first in the line; Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first and once more in a section completely unrelated to Brexit; Labour opposes a second Scottish independence referendum.

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upl...festo-2017.pdf

The policy that any deal would be put back to the people has only come to light in the last couple of months.

It came up over a year ago as a result of a decision by the national council.

[Elegiac]

Well thankfully we're at a point of questioning the wisdom and faith of the government, not whether what they're doing is straight up illegal.

You really want to make a virtue of having no legal roadblocks in place to prevent the executive from unilaterally proroguing the legislature?

Hint: The ability to do that simply doesn't exist in the US, for good reason. I only wish Australia had followed suit.

[Jessicka]

This is actually somewhat correct. The PLP didn't push for a PV/2R until their conference in 2018 (IIRC) Corbyn has only started adopting it in recent months.

The original Labour plan at the last GE was to negotiate Brexit and put it to Parliament, which was a shot at the Tories who originally wanted to pass the WA without it being in the Commons.

He's been asked to clarify it often in recent months because he's constantly accused of being on the fence, or not making a decision etc. But it has been Labour policy for over a year.

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You really want to make a virtue of having no legal roadblocks in place to prevent the executive from unilaterally proroguing the legislature?

There don't need to be. Vote of No Confidence, Unity Government, pass no-deal prevention legislation, call General Election... job done. There's just no need or desire to go nuclear at the first sign of trouble. I'm sorry if that's not your preference.

[Northern Goblin]

You really want to make a virtue of having no legal roadblocks in place to prevent the executive from unilaterally proroguing the legislature?

We have them, we just don't necessarily need to use them.

Remember that NI bill from before recess that we were told was pointless by someone in here? That was how Parliament returned this early to have time now to avoid no-deal before Johnson's attempt at proroguation.

See, you guys play checkers with the court system deciding everything because your elected representatives lack the means to do so, whereas politics here is a game of chess.

[Elegiac]

There don't need to be. Vote of No Confidence, Unity Government, pass no-deal prevention legislation, call General Election... job done. There's just no need or desire to go nuclear at the first sign of trouble. I'm sorry if that's not your preference.

*slow clap*

Now imagine if all that bullshit was entirely unnecessary by virtue of not doing something so stupid like calling a referendum which - again - is not a feature of the US federal system or more recently designed political systems.

California already experienced the drawbacks of government by plebiscite and has paid the price for it. But go off about how the UK has no systemic issues.

[Jessicka]

*slow clap*

Now imagine if all that bullshit was entirely unnecessary by virtue of not doing something so stupid like calling a referendum which - again - is not a feature of the US federal system or more recently designed political systems.

California already experienced the drawbacks of government by plebiscite and has paid the price for it. But go off about how the UK has no systemic issues.

The referendum was Conservative policy, set out to head off losing votes to UKIP.

And yet here you are still blaming Labour for everything that came since. Chaos with Ed Miliband never asked for a referendum and all this would never have happened.

[Northern Goblin]

You're right, what were we thinking putting the decision of the EU membership to a public vote.

The decision to leave should have been held the same way we made the decision to join..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975...hip_referendum

... oh.

[Elegiac]

If you are ever surprised at how quite a few members of the British government seem to not understand how dire a situation Brexit is from their frivolous behaviour, look no further than the British citizens saying that Brexit is just political business as usual.

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The referendum was Conservative policy, set out to head off losing votes to UKIP.

And yet here you are still blaming Labour for everything that came since. Chaos with Ed Miliband never asked for a referendum and all this would never have happened.

Uh, what? I'm not blaming Labour for everything. I'm blaming Labour for being part of the circus.

Or are you honestly still so mired in traditional political framing that you can't take an indictment of the entire British political class for what it is rather than a partisan attack?

[Jessicka]

If you are ever surprised at how quite a few members of the British government seem to not understand how dire a situation Brexit is from their frivolous behaviour, look no further than the British citizens saying that Brexit is just political business as usual.

A week is a long time in Politics. Brexit is at least two months away. Relax and enjoy the drama.

We’re used to it. This is how it works. Sorry it’s not for you.

[Elegiac]

A week is a long time in Politics. Brexit is at least two months away. Relax and enjoy the drama.

Ha ha, it's so funny because the UK is on the verge of an economic crisis where access to basics like food and medicine are in question.

Absolutely disgraceful, really. But as Skroe pointed out, a lot of people still seem to be living under the delusion that the UK can simply lean on the empire in hard times.

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Remember how funny it was when the social division caused by a needlessly protracted political issue ended up fucking over a lot of innocent minorities due to increased xenophobia and put British expats in the EU in a state of persistent stress?

[Jessicka]

Ha ha, it's so funny because the UK is on the verge of an economic crisis where access to basics like food and medicine are in question.

Absolutely disgraceful, really. But as Skroe pointed out, a lot of people still seem to be living under the delusion that the UK can simply lean on the empire in hard times.

By the end of tonight we’ll have the legislation to avoid no deal going through the system. It’s been literally 1 and a half days since Parliament came back. Stop panicking.

[Elegiac]

Or, or, remember the time that roadblocking any and all government issues because of Brexit started to cause London to resemble Brooklyn at its worst? Hilarious!

Who knew that burning the entire of your diplomatic clout was nothing more than just a pie in the face.

[zealo]

A week is a long time in Politics. Brexit is at least two months away. Relax and enjoy the drama.

We’re used to it. This is how it works. Sorry it’s not for you.

Two months is not long at all with how far up shit creek without a paddle the UK is in regards to Brexit. Finding a way forward that isn't no deal is both imminent and urgent for you lot.