The Russian T-50 PAK FA is trash, and India wants out.

[Skroe]

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017...m-with-russia/

Bad news for the ailing Russian aerospace / defense industry.

Their Su-35S in a F-22/Movie Prop costume has fallen far, far under the performance targets and gone way, way over budget. Doing an F-22 (much less an F-22 beater) on the cheap turns out to be a nonsense proposition.

Would not be surprised if the T-50 / PAK FA program never goes much further than the handful of prototypes and pre-production aircraft Russia has, and they end up just buying Su-27 variants forever.

India will look domestically, or to future US or European designs.

Good news for Western interests in Asia was we tighten our relationship with India. But how many Russian defense jobs will be lost? And how can Russia compete on an international market that is going to see a surge of 5th generation designs over the next 15 years?

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017...m-with-russia/

Indian Air Force wants out of fighter program with Russia

NEW DELHI – The ambitious $10 billion Indo-Russian program for joint development and production of fifth generation fighter aircraft, or FGFA, faces a new serious hurdle, as the Indian Air Force demands a discontinuation of the project.

Senior IAF leadership recently expressed apprehension to the Ministry of Defence, claiming the proposed FGFA program with Russia does not meet desired requirements like U.S. F-35 fighter type capabilities, disclosed a senior IAF official. That official added, that “IAF is not keen to continue with the program.”

The proposed FGFA program does not meet desired stealth and cross section features compared to a F-35 fighter, the official explained, thus major structural changes are needed that cannot be met in the existing Russian prototypes.

FGFA also does not have modular engine concept, making maintenance and serviceability of the fleet expensive and troublesome. A second service official said the modular engine concept is required for the fleet serviceability and availability of FGFA aircrafts at short notice, since it can be done by the user itself.

Russians have offered non-modular engines for FGFA and its maintenance and other relations can only be handled by the manufacturer.

Russian Embassy diplomats here were unavailable for comments.

Vaijinder K Thakur, retired IAF squadron leader and defense analyst disagreement with the Air Force assessment of capability, saying that the current Russian FGFA prototype, known as Su-57, features the AL-41F1 engine. But the production variant of FGFA would be fitted with the Product 30 engine which is 30 percent lighter, features improved thrust, and has better fuel efficiency and fewer moving parts. That results in improved reliability and 30 percent lower life-cycle cost, Thakur said.

Without having operated U.S. fighters, the IAF is hardly in a position to pronounce judgment on the comparative long-term operating costs of Russian and U.S. fighters, Thakur added.

India has nominated state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd as production agency for FGFA program.

Earlier India had planned a firm order of 108 fighters and release of $5 billion in stages over the course of development and production.

[Deleted]

Russians should hire german engineers if they ever want to become competetive in that regard.

[Polyxo]

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017...m-with-russia/

Bad news for the ailing Russian aerospace / defense industry.

Their Su-35S in a F-22/Movie Prop costume has fallen far, far under the performance targets and gone way, way over budget. Doing an F-22 (much less an F-22 beater) on the cheap turns out to be a nonsense proposition.

Would not be surprised if the T-50 / PAK FA program never goes much further than the handful of prototypes and pre-production aircraft Russia has, and they end up just buying Su-27 variants forever.

India will look domestically, or to future US or European designs.

Good news for Western interests in Asia was we tighten our relationship with India. But how many Russian defense jobs will be lost? And how can Russia compete on an international market that is going to see a surge of 5th generation designs over the next 15 years?

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017...m-with-russia/

Russia seems to have repeatedly taken the "maneuverability at all costs" too far for too long. Their planes all wow everybody at airshows and attract tons of fanboys, but they just seem to be garbage in all other ways.

[Deleted]

So u call doom because india who gave some cash n didn't contribute any expertise cries about relying on Rus experts n Rus not handing over all ze secrets to them?

Lol

Two things. It's not called T-50, that was teh proto-type, do u have trouble keeping up?
and didn't you make a similar thread a year or so ago about india "pulling out"? Indian drama seems to fascinate you, I recommend you watch some silly Bollywood movies about indian drama queens

[Kreo]

Normally I would ask for a source material but its Skroe. All good, USA is namba wan!

[Skroe]

Normally I would ask for a source material but its Skroe. All good, USA is namba wan!

I linked the source material. In the original post. At the top.

:|

[markos82]

Its still probably better than F-35 that had like 500 billion development cost.

[Slant]

Russians should hire german engineers if they ever want to become competetive in that regard.

They don't have the money to pay our engineers. But we're happy to sell them the finished product. Which we manufacture. And maintain in cases of repairs. Or they can repair it themselves after they've been schooled by us in paid sessions. With spare parts that we'll sell to them. Precision engineering doesn't just "happen", you know.

Ah, nevermind. I forgot. We sanctioned the hell out of Russia and they cannot order pretty much all things that are shiny from the EU. Guess they'll have to do it the old way. We've got lots of duct tape we can sell them! I think that's not sanctioned (yet).

[markos82]

They don't have the money to pay our engineers. But we're happy to sell them the finished product. Which we manufacture. And maintain in cases of repairs. Or they can repair it themselves after they've been schooled by us in paid sessions. With spare parts that we'll sell to them. Precision engineering doesn't just "happen", you know.

Ah, nevermind. I forgot. We sanctioned the hell out of Russia and they cannot order pretty much all things that are shiny from the EU. Guess they'll have to do it the old way. We've got lots of duct tape we can sell them! I think that's not sanctioned (yet).

You are confused. I think USA payed your engineers and scientists after Germany lost WW2 while SSSR used them as slave labor untill they dropped dead.

[markos82]

I think the point, that Russia can't make or buy anything shiny, still stands.

You do know that everything that shine isnt gold? And your point is invalid in this case, Russia has better military industry than USA ( thats spends so many time more ) and ofc Germany

[Slant]

I think the point, that Russia can't make or buy anything shiny, still stands.

Yes, it does. But if you take a bit of duct tape and chewing gum to hold the loose pieces together, he has a point, too. Although it won't hold up once I kick against it. Watch this:

The US hardly paid for our current generation of engineers that's developing and researching new tech. It's been 70 years. The engineers the US may have funded have long since retired or are dead by now.

And now watch it fall apart... Made in Russia.

[Slant]

You do know that everything that shine isnt gold? And your point is invalid in this case, Russia has better military industry than USA ( thats spends so many time more ) and ofc Germany

Germany doesn't really care much about military strength. So, while I maintain that our tech is actually of more value, we do not push it to the limit that I'm comfortable saying it'd blow Russian tech out of the water. But Russia having a better military tech industry than the US? On what scale? Circulation of licensed AK's in the third world? That's just about the only metric that I can think of where Russia is ahead.

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Care to mention some of their better products?

Let's be fair, the AK is a splendid rifle. Easy to maintain, doesn't break easily and it's cheap to manufacture. There's only so many ways you can propel a bullet out of a long tube and the Russians have found a rather efficient method of doing so.

[markos82]

Care to mention some of their better products?

Fighter Planes, guns for example AK-47 that after well 70 years is better than all modern weapons, ballistic missiles, cargo planes, ships that cost fraction to build and operate comapred to USA and are neck to neck.... Oh and lets not forget Dragunov rifle

[Triggered Fridgekin]

Care to mention some of their better products?

Winter coats. Maybe.

[Slant]

Fighter Planes, guns for example AK-47 that after well 70 years is better than all modern weapons, ballistic missiles, cargo planes, ships that cost fraction to build and operate comapred to USA and are neck to neck....

The OP is literally talking about a partner of yours saying your fighter airplanes are shit and they want out. So according to India, no, your fighter planes are not better. The AK is a solid rifle, I'll not say anything against it. But ballistic missiles? Russia is famous for having to compensate for inaccuracy in ballistic missiles by the sheer number of the arsenal. Cargo planes? Dude, having the biggest plane doesn't help you much if you can't land it on <1km grass strips. I'm not even getting into the rust buckets that Russia calls navy ships. Do you remember that ship that had emergency forces alerted near London because everyone thought it was on fire?

I heard they had someone on the radio going "Smoke? What smoke? Oh, that's just Dimitri's cooking... or our coal engine!"

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It's not fair going for the lowest hanging fruit.

Well, yes, but you gotta respect that rifle. It is reliable as fuck. Unlike the AR15 variants we like to worship in the West.

[Theinquisition]

Russia seems to have repeatedly taken the "maneuverability at all costs" too far for too long. Their planes all wow everybody at airshows and attract tons of fanboys, but they just seem to be garbage in all other ways.

Maneuverability is fine, but when your avionics package is 30 years behind.....yeah.

[markos82]

The OP is literally talking about a partner of yours saying your fighter airplanes are shit and they want out. So according to India, no, your fighter planes are not better. The AK is a solid rifle, I'll not say anything against it. But ballistic missiles? Russia is famous for having to compensate for inaccuracy in ballistic missiles by the sheer number of the arsenal. Cargo planes? Dude, having the biggest plane doesn't help you much if you can't land it on <1km grass strips. I'm not even getting into the rust buckets that Russia calls navy ships. Do you remember that ship that had emergency forces alerted near London because everyone thought it was on fire?

I heard they had someone on the radio going "Smoke? What smoke? Oh, that's just Dimitri's cooking... or our coal engine!")

Its funny that you mention that, but didnt USA lost stealth plane over Serbia, until then a plane that was never shot in combat, shot down by a shitty air defense and radar from 60s?!

Tridant II has like 100m accuracy while R-36 has lets say 300m, but its faster and carries 4x more payload and has better range. What cargo plane that can carry 200t+ can land on less than <1km landing strip and than fully loaded take off?

[Shalcker]

The OP is literally talking about a partner of yours saying your fighter airplanes are shit and they want out. So according to India, no, your fighter planes are not better.

This one from August disagrees:

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017...-fighter-deal/


NEW DELHI — India is going ahead with the acquisition of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft with Russia after an internal committee of the Ministry of Defence recommended that the purchase of the aircraft will duplicate India’s plan to develop a homegrown advanced medium combat aircraft, according to an MoD official.

“The internal committee, headed by retired Indian Air Force Air Marshal Simhakutty Varthaman, after studying technical parameters, has recommended India to acquire the Indo-Russian FGFA,” the MoD official said, referring to the fifth-generation fighter aircraft.

On the road ahead, the official said, a final agreement between India and Russia will be prepared that will pave the way for the release of over $5 billion toward India’s share to develop the FGFA.
...
India opted for the Russian FGFA because “Russia is a better option with the country willing to co-develop on agreed terms apart from comprehensive technology transfer,” the MoD official added.

They want tech, not just jets. And US isn't going to share; Indians tried that option.

That's why PAK FA is better for India. They aren't going to be completely identical to F-35 in capabilities anyway, .

[Polyxo]

Maneuverability is fine, but when your avionics package is 30 years behind.....yeah.

They're prestige pieces. Sky dicks.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Russians should hire german engineers if they ever want to become competetive in that regard.

Fighter jets aren't exactly the countries' forte and as a german I find that comment rather cringe worthy. Frankly at this point I have the feeling that when it comes to renewing military equipment no country seems up to the task, especially aeronautics and space travel devices. Every of those face-lifts seem to be steeped in scandals and general issues.