Mythic plus killed the raiding scene.

[Dormie]

Pretty much this. ^

Hardcore raiders like to feel superior. Before LFR and M+ all the best loot was only available from one place in the entire game, and the entire game was engineered to funnel people into it regardless of whether or not the actually enjoyed it.

Surprise surprise: Along comes options to play the game in different ways, and suddenly the shitlords at the top who would sacrifice their own health and friends for a spot in a top raid don't get to lord their playstyle over everyone else.

As far as I'm concerned, LFR and M+ are two of the best things to ever happen to the MMORPG industry.

You're most likely awful at the game. And not in a you can't do mechanics way, in a, you just can't navigate the game so you need the game to do it for you way.
LFR is evidence of nothing other than people like free stuff. Mythic raids don't need some super high attendance to prove they're successful, if anything that's a sign they're too easy.

No, the raids have not been "fine" in Legion.

I don't consider world first problem real problems.

[Deleted]

Less and fewer people raid today, with mythic + gear being easier to obtain. It's just as good as mythic raiding gear. With how the mythic + esport is going we can expect from now on Mythic + will always be a thing and it wont change other than more dungeons and affixes. I love dungeons as much as the next guy, but getting better gear from mythic raidng is a joke. The dungeons are not hard enough to where they should get better gear, until you do a 17 key the content is a joke, assuming you do it on your main.

I cant link anything because Im new, it says "You are not allowed to post any kinds of links, images or videos until you post a few times." However you guys can look up what I just said through WQ and WoW progress.

Mythic plus didnt kill the raiding scene. Titnforged on everything killed the raiding scene.

Mythic plus can be a fully functional thing we just cant have more then warforged for +5 ilvls on stuff. How normal dungeons being able to drop mythic quality raid gear was ever a good idea is just completely beyond me.

[Kokolums]

Nah. Wow saw it's miracle success happen and that only comes along once in a genre's life. There's nothing Blizzard can do to bring people back outside of a small short term period.

I think thats an unfair assessment.

[Mayia]

The real issue is time.
Back in DND days you'd spend months playing a "campaign" in Classic wow you'd spend hours in a raid just clearing, now days people want to sit down and be done within a half hour.

The same Uni/highschool students who used to spend a couple of hours clearing BT and Sunwell or the like now have jobs and require less gameplay for similar rewards, so rewards you can get from gaming have been spread out into many other areas, and the time required reduced to complete stuff.

Given enough times you'll put a coin into a vending machine and a piece of loot will pop out.. oh wait.

[KainneAbsolute]

People want dungeons to be relevant: they create Mythic+

People begin to complain.

The cycle starts again

[Ashenhoof]

The real issue is time.
Back in DND days you'd spend months playing a "campaign" in Classic wow you'd spend hours in a raid just clearing, now days people want to sit down and be done within a half hour.

The same Uni/highschool students who used to spend a couple of hours clearing BT and Sunwell or the like now have jobs and require less gameplay for similar rewards, so rewards you can get from gaming have been spread out into many other areas, and the time required reduced to complete stuff.

Given enough times you'll put a coin into a vending machine and a piece of loot will pop out.. oh wait.

I agree with everything you said.

Probably I'm in the minority, but I wish Blizzard would return WoW a bit to it's RPG roots.
Sadly, I doubt that this would ever be the case.

[Exerionx]

Mythic + has been a fantastic addition to the game. It hasn't killed mythic raiding at all.

[Sanguinerd]

If anything is killing raiding it's mythic itself.

[kamuimac]

I'm so sorry people refused to carry you, they must be evil.

and yet somehow in mythic + he doesnt have this problem - so clearly mythic + > raids as a game system.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree with everything you said.

Probably I'm in the minority, but I wish Blizzard would return WoW a bit to it's RPG roots.
Sadly, I doubt that this would ever be the case.

they cant - because playerbase changed - players nowadays desire different things then players 20 years ago

you cant stop progress and evolution

in next 20 years games without doubt will look completly different then those nowadays too '

its a good thing .

[Al Gorefiend]

Raids across all MMOs are dying out.

Getting 10+ strangers on the same schedule on the same night has always been a challenge.

IMO, about time raids stopped being the endgame focus and Blizz shifts more towards the M+ scene.

I'm all for raids remaining current content, just not THE endgame content. Legion does it well.

[traumabrew]

I agree that gear is too easily obtained. A player should not be able to obtain gear from lower level difficulty content that eclipses the gear acquired from the highest level of content. Blizzard has become the Oprah of epic loot. They are handing out the best loot for simple content. Mythic + content is not equivalent to mythic raiding, even at higher key levels. You can now obtain some of the best loot from "casual" content. Raiding is about tackling the challenge of end game content. The satisfaction of downing the bosses is one of the reasons for raiding, but the loot obtained from raiding is always going to be the carrot on the stick. Loot is the reason you keep coming back to raid the same place. It was badge of honor to stand in the front of the SW AH wearing your epic loot and showing it off. How many times I remember seeing a player standing there showing of their Thunderfury or Shadowmourne.

The loot train has come off the tracks and everyone is scooping up the spilled loot by the arms full. Legendaries are not really legendary anymore when everyone has a dozen or so. Remember back to the days when it was a big event when someone completed their legendary weapon. Remember when the Rhonin would shout in Dalaran when someone killed Algalon. Those players would strut around Dalaran like they were Richard Pryor and Gene Wilder walking into jail saying "thats right, thats right...we bad, we bad" in Stir Crazy. All that is gone.

[Barnabas]

It's not the size of that pool, it's the cyclical nature of it, at the start of a tier, and especially at the start of an expansion you get the plague of overabundance of players, so guilds sprout like mushrooms after autumn rain. But 2-3 months in when the tier starts getting stale and guilds reach to bosses that take higher wipe count to down, players start to "take breaks" and the stream of recruits dries up. Then if your guild survives the tier, when it's about to end you're suddenly inundated with apps from all the "returning players" who had super serious irl reasons to take a break of course, no kidding.

And then the lower your guild is in the pecking order, the worse it is, because somehow even the most mediocre player thinks he deserves a spot in a server top guild. So the guilds that are atm in the 5-7m range have it the hardest.

At least heroic is flex size, so less problem with "cyclical playerbase" there.

Which all results in the statement you replied to.

[Servasus]

As someone who actually stopped mythic raiding during Legion, I'll tell you why: The AP grind was incredibly too much for rewards that could be achieved with relatively good luck from other, easier sources of content. The challenge was there, sure, but a challenge without the reward at the end feels pretty hollow once you overcome it and the hype of that dies down. You go into a heroic the next week for faceroll farm and you get a titanforged piece that's better than what you got in last week's kill of that extremely unforgiving and difficult mythic boss you killed and suddenly you have this feeling of "Well okay then, I guess..."

Once I stopped raiding and went casual (I still pug heroic and normal a lot and I get most of my gear from that plus, yes the mythic+ weekly cache, and I stay about 5-10 ilevels below actual mythic raiders on my DH) I actually have a ton more fun with the game because there's a plethora of activities you can do without feeling like you have only do the optimal ones. If I wanna work on an alt, I can do that without feeling guilty that I'm not on my main grinding out AP.

Now, I will conceded, AP grinding isn't REALLY a thing for mythic raid guilds anymore because of the AK system revamp, which I think would have possibly saved me from quitting back during Nighthold. But I'm having so much fun just playing how I want to play now that the desire to bang my head against a wall for minimal rewards and "prestige" isn't strong or validated anymore.

If you want mythic raiding to matter, this is how you fix it:

-The rewards. Killing a mythic boss, especially toward the end of a raid or an end boss, is much harder than (most) everything else you can do in the game. It should be rewarding, and since ilevels are much more fluid now thanks to titanforging, it's much more often the case that a heroic raider and mythic raider's ilevels are more similar now than in previous expansion. My SOLUTION is that we keep titanforging but that a piece of gear can only ever titanforge 15 levels higher than its base, to allow for nice upgrades and feel-good moments, but still keeps rewards meaningful based on the difficulty of the content you obtained them from. The fact that a person can get a 955 version of a Kil'Jaeden trinket off heroic, normal or EVEN with extrem luck, LFR, is absurd to me. Do you have a better chance to get a 955 version in mythic? Sure. But it is not INSANELY rare to see something titanforge to 950+ in heroic Tomb. I remember the first week it opened, my guild got like 4 pieces of 950, including a healing trinket, out of there on heroic. Now that person with that healing trinket doesn't even care about doing that boss on mythic really, because he's already got an almost perfect version of that trinket. So again, make it so normal tomb could only titanforge to 915, heroic can only titanforge to 930, and mythic can titanforge to 945. Then, take other sources like 910 relinquished tokens and cap them at 925. Cap 895 world quests at 910. I got a 935 relic off a world quest the other week for literally running in and tagging a mob with throw glaive. How do I deserve a piece of loot that is potentially better than something someone got out of a mythic raid just for pressing throw glaive and tagging a world quest mob? It's a bit silly.

-The AP grind. It needs to be kept at a minimal level or be capped like how valor/emblems of frost/etc were in previous expansions. It can even be a reasonably high cap for all I care, but allowing people to go INFINITE while still having AP and AK function like how they did back in 7.0 and 7.1 was a mistake. Admittedly, Blizzard has already mostly fixed this problem by adding in concordance, but reintroduced it (sort of) with Netherlight Crucible traits. The reason I say sort of is because it's actually not that hard to be trait 75 by the time antorus will release, probably 1 week after blizzcon is over. If Blizzard keeps AP and AK the same as they are in 7.3 going into 8.0 for whatever new system we will be using as a progression system (Because we won't keep artifacts but you can sure as hell bet we will have some replacement for the AP system as a whole) then it will be FINE, but I still think they could take it one step further and put in a high cap on it. High enough where no casual will ever dream of being roadblocked by it and denied rewards from playing the game, but low enough to where the guy who spends 10 hours a day chain running mythic+ for AP doesn't set a bar for the rest of the raid team. Because whether you agree with it or not, most mythic guilds who are actually worth anything DO set requirements to raid, and for a large portion of legion, those requirements have been Artifact Trait-based.

TL;DR: I do think that mythic+ is PART of the problem, but NOT the problem. I think the scaling on mythic means that as long as the scaling actually makes the content harder, it can be allowed to offer higher ilevel gear. But there should be a cap on titanforging so that something from normal can't titanforge past the based heroic ilevel and so on and so forth. Gear should be rewarded to you based on what you did to earn it. Someone stomping on grapes in Suramar for 5 minutes who got extremely lucky shouldn't really be able to get a piece of gear on par with or better than someone who spent dozens of hours and hundreds of wipes to kill a mythic boss and THEN had to not only get lucky enough to win the item, but for it to even drop in the first place. And finally, AP grind needs to have a very high cap as to keep no-lifing and raid guild requirements down to something less than a full time job + a part time job. It can still be high enough to where it won't ever be met by casuals. The only person that loses out is the asshat playing 16 hours a day to get ahead of everyone else in their mythic guild. He might be having fun, but he's making the rest of the guild miserable and burnt out as they struggle to keep up with him.

Look at all the top end mythic guilds that fell apart during legion and their statements they made. ALL of them mentioned they wew throwing in the towel because the time commitment in Legion was much higher than any previous expansion and they did not feel the reward or the prestige was worth the time invested anymore.

[Hotsforyou]

Raiding's been kept alive on life support by LFR for years.
It's about time it died for good.

Raiding is the only thing keeping me subbed. The rest of the game is shit. If raiding dies, you lose a lot of subs from the game and it will not survive.

Also, if 10M mythic is not an option in the new expansion i am out. So sick and tired of the recruitment boss being the hardest boss int he game. Completely over fixed 20 Man Mythic.

[Marrilaife]

Which all results in the statement you replied to.

So you'd generally vouch for a situation where guilds are rare, far and between, and most players cannot get into one? Aren't they already complaining it's hard to get into a guild and guilded raiding is too hermetic and elitist?

[Bloodnickel]

raiding scene seems healthy to me. sure a few world first guilds have disbanded over the years but I think thats just the game showing age for a lot of people

[ID811717]

Mythic plus can be a fully functional thing we just cant have more then warforged for +5 ilvls on stuff. How normal dungeons being able to drop mythic quality raid gear was ever a good idea is just completely beyond me.

That would make mythic raiding an absolute prerequisite for pushing high M+ keys. To farm the gear. Then M+ would become the most elite form of PvE content.

A player should not be able to obtain gear from lower level difficulty content that eclipses the gear acquired from the highest level of content. [...] They are handing out the best loot for simple content. Mythic + content is not equivalent to mythic raiding, even at higher key levels. You can now obtain some of the best loot from "casual" content. Raiding is about tackling the challenge of end game content. The satisfaction of downing the bosses is one of the reasons for raiding

Have you ever done a mythic+ dungeon on +20 or higher in time?
It is quite unlikely to drop you an ilvl 930+ piece of loot with good itemization. Not before you do dozens of them.
But completing it will likely give you shitloads of satisfaction. Possibly more than from killing a new, hard mythic raid boss.

[Seefer]

It's funny, I used to shit all over LFR, now I am just like "Well, I don't raid anymore, may as well go into LFR to see the rest of the story".........maybe if they didn't have 4 difficulties and a mass load of mechanics just for the sake of it rather than less mechanics just more unforgivable I might go back to raiding.

[Super Kami Dende]

If anything M+ kept the raiding scene alive as more people are able to keep up with gear reqs.

[Kheims]

M+ has nothing to do with it. With dying servers, no new server mergers and mandatory 20 man, Blizzard is slowly killing raids. It needs to be addressed. It isn't hard to make mechanics that don't scale on the amount of people. Make soak pools that you have to rotate raiders not add more pools. Limit soak mechanics and make more fights like Seigecrafter or Thok in SoO. Fairly fun fights and the amount of people didn't make a huge difference from what I recall.

There needs to be less dps checks and more mechanics that require some coordination. Make mythic require more coordination not more dps and players.