Raiding and M+ moving forward, Rewards without AP?

[Artunias]

This is just a thought experiment more or less. Personally I don't like AP, and without artifact weapons it seems like a good chopping block moving forward to the next expansion. The other side of this is I don't feel like the high end reward model in raiding or in M+ is appropriately rewarding for the time investment.

Loot item level, Titanforging, and Ilvl Upgrades

While this has been a controversial subject in Legion, I'm mostly ok with it. In regards to titanforging I think there is an extremely simple fix for most of my concerns with the system.

-1. Increase the item level gap between heroic and mythic level raiding
-2. Make mythic raid loot closer to the TF cap.
-3. I'd like to see the base item level of M+ loot scale at higher levels. For example right now I think a +15 should jump to 920 gear, and a +20 should jump again to 930 gear. The point being if you are able to clear the extremely high levels, it should be worth your time.

So that brings us to the last part of this. Upgrades and how do you keep the content rewarding in the longer term. I'd like to see the old currency returned that we've seen in previous expansion that would allow you to upgrade items to the current Titanforge cap.

-1. It would be awarded based on your highest M+ completed for the week, very similar to how AP is awarded now.
-2. Allow the final boss of the current raid tier to drop, scaled based on the difficultly you defeat them in.
-3. No weekly cap, simply limit what awards it as seen above

That would keep mythic dungeons rewarding in the long term, you'd always have a reason to do it, and it would combat loot RNG. While you'd still have your weekly item (I believe this system can be unchanged), if it was a bad item (usually) at least you'd get the currency to upgrade something that you are wearing. Also as a direct replacement for AP it provides a measurable constant increase in power over the long term, while allowing players to combat Titanfroge rng in those unlucky slots. I've loved the M+ system, I just don't feel like the reward structure has been very good for it on the higher end. All of these would reward you for completing higher keys.

[Onikaroshi]

We'll see tomorrow, but personally, I believe some form of AP will be sticking around, maybe character wide, but it'll be there.

[Marrilaife]

They're not gonna give up "alternate progression after levelling has ended", if it's not AP it's something else to nudge people into keeping logged and grinding menial content (must be accessible to majority of casual playerbase ofc) only so others can point out "but it's absolutely not forced and not mandatory" while lemmings will grind to keep up with their guildie Joneses' and Blizzard will keep racking in these MAU hours for a nice quarterly report.

[Pickynerd]

To me WF/TF undermines too much of the current endgame, I think Blizzard is backing themselves into a corner where no reward is rewarding enough.

[Alvito]

I'd like a cap to titanforging and mythic + to be less of a loot pinata. If nothing else raise the difficulty to get gear that out levels heroic and mythic raid gear. Doing a 10 that you only have to finish to get 930 gear with a higher then normal chance to titanforge is silly. I don't know if is an oversight by Blizzard or them trying to weed out raiding. Either way I don't like it and it is on of the many things killing off raiding and mythic raiding.

[Arainie]

If they get rid of AP without replacing it with another progression method outside of organized content we'll be back to WoD raidlogging/unsubbing. I say that with full confidence, and I absolutely don't think the solution is to offer higher ilvl loot from Mythic raiding or to increase the gap between difficulties. The gap is already significant, but the real bad guy in the drama is titanforging and removing or heavily capping it would solve so many issues. It'd piss off those who have no other means of getting higher item level no doubt, so I hardly think that's going to happen either. My conclusion is that we're still going to have both AP (in some shape or form) and titanforging going in to the next expansion!

[epLe]

AP model is great for guild activities, I think it is what cause a lot to log in outside raidhours.
It would be WoD garrisnooze again if AP wasn't there.

Tying AP or similar to only M+ or raids would be really bad for the reason above.

[Annamarine]

This is just a thought experiment more or less. Personally I don't like AP, and without artifact weapons it seems like a good chopping block moving forward to the next expansion. The other side of this is I don't feel like the high end reward model in raiding or in M+ is appropriately rewarding for the time investment.

Loot item level, Titanforging, and Ilvl Upgrades

While this has been a controversial subject in Legion, I'm mostly ok with it. In regards to titanforging I think there is an extremely simple fix for most of my concerns with the system.

-1. Increase the item level gap between heroic and mythic level raiding
-2. Make mythic raid loot closer to the TF cap.
-3. I'd like to see the base item level of M+ loot scale at higher levels. For example right now I think a +15 should jump to 920 gear, and a +20 should jump again to 930 gear. The point being if you are able to clear the extremely high levels, it should be worth your time.

So that brings us to the last part of this. Upgrades and how do you keep the content rewarding in the longer term. I'd like to see the old currency returned that we've seen in previous expansion that would allow you to upgrade items to the current Titanforge cap.

-1. It would be awarded based on your highest M+ completed for the week, very similar to how AP is awarded now.
-2. Allow the final boss of the current raid tier to drop, scaled based on the difficultly you defeat them in.
-3. No weekly cap, simply limit what awards it as seen above

That would keep mythic dungeons rewarding in the long term, you'd always have a reason to do it, and it would combat loot RNG. While you'd still have your weekly item (I believe this system can be unchanged), if it was a bad item (usually) at least you'd get the currency to upgrade something that you are wearing. Also as a direct replacement for AP it provides a measurable constant increase in power over the long term, while allowing players to combat Titanfroge rng in those unlucky slots. I've loved the M+ system, I just don't feel like the reward structure has been very good for it on the higher end. All of these would reward you for completing higher keys.

good to know what you dont like I am sure blizzard will change their game to satisfy your requirements

[Deleted]

AP model is great for guild activities, I think it is what cause a lot to log in outside raidhours.
It would be WoD garrisnooze again if AP wasn't there.

Tying AP or similar to only M+ or raids would be really bad for the reason above.

Ap is fine if simply had a cap imo, and legion without ap wouldnt be wod activity outside raids, titanforge, legendaries + M+ you can do for challenge aswell if you like them.

[Bloodmagix]

AP model is great for guild activities, I think it is what cause a lot to log in outside raidhours.
It would be WoD garrisnooze again if AP wasn't there.

Tying AP or similar to only M+ or raids would be really bad for the reason above.

For some it's great. It makes me log in outside raid hours because I feel obliged to or I will fall behind in AP. Garrisnooze would be fine for me as there are better games to play lately but I still love raiding.

To raid I need to grind/farm so I'm forced into it. Sure I could not raid like some are going to say, but I do enjoy it and don't believe I should give up due to crappy systems in place.

[Tech614]

lol @ thinking they won't replace AP with a similar system.

[Onikaroshi]

lol @ thinking they won't replace AP with a similar system.

They will, the only thing really wrong with it now is it's spec based not character based, they make it character based and it would be a nice post Max Level progression system.

[Hotsforyou]

We'll see tomorrow, but personally, I believe some form of AP will be sticking around, maybe character wide, but it'll be there.

They will immediately lose my sub when i am done clearing Antorus if this awful AP system sticks around.

[Tech614]

They will immediately lose my sub when i am done clearing Antorus if this awful AP system sticks around.

Yea, I'm sure they want to go back to xpacs like WoD that did such a good job of keeping people subbed without AP.

/s

[Schizoide]

They will immediately lose my sub when i am done clearing Antorus if this awful AP system sticks around.

It's sticking around. Sorry to see you go, dude.

[Hotsforyou]

It's sticking around. Sorry to see you go, dude.

Ya, im out after Antorus. WIth the Classic servers coming, no way i will play current wow. GO back to wow before they killed the communities and servers with awful Que systems.

[Tech614]

Ya, im out after Antorus. WIth the Classic servers coming, no way i will play current wow.

Blizzard won't care, either way you're giving them your money. If you think the classic servers won't require a WoW sub(or even have their own sub separate from regular WoW one...) well... LOL

[Millyraynge]

Ya, im out after Antorus. WIth the Classic servers coming, no way i will play current wow. GO back to wow before they killed the communities and servers with awful Que systems.

It will never happen that you will play an original 1.X WoW, at least from the technical point of view.

[Tech614]

It will never happen that you will play an original 1.X WoW, at least from the technical point of view.

The hilarious part is people actually think they're getting vanilla WoW when they're getting modern WoW locked to 60 and vanilla dungeons/raids.

[harruin]

It will never happen that you will play an original 1.X WoW, at least from the technical point of view.

Why do you say that?