Were the Star Wars Prequels really that bad?

[eschatological]

Your first paragraph is talking about how midichlorians can be eliminated from the script with nothing lost. Your reply to me implies you both know it does serve a purpose - meaning that it cannot be eliminated from the script - and that you don't care, because it's "irrelevant" - meaning that it does not serve a purpose and can be eliminated. This is a very confused reply.

It was given a purpose - but that purpose was contrived and didn't make sense. You can still depict the Jedi order as becoming rigid, overly bureaucratic, and stale, without introducing midichlorians at all. In fact, the idea that the Force is science-related has very little to do with the organizational flaws of the Jedi at all. Unless you're a crazy person who equates science with government bureaucracy and "decay and impotence." At which point, that reveals more your feelings about science and religion more than anything else.

[Mormolyce]

-Not cast Samuel L Jackson as Mace Windu. We all know why he did this and its retarded

I agree with some of your other points, but not this one. If anything I'd give Samuel L Jackson more to do. Or at least better lines.

[Mahourai]

It was given a purpose - but that purpose was contrived and didn't make sense. You can still depict the Jedi order as becoming rigid, overly bureaucratic, and stale, without introducing midichlorians at all. In fact, the idea that the Force is science-related has very little to do with the organizational flaws of the Jedi at all.

Deciding that Anakin Skywalker is a prophesied Messiah because he registered a 9.5 on the Force Richter Scale is not scientific at all.

EDIT:

To be more accurate, it is scientism. They have invented gadgets to detect whether someone meets a threshold of magic power and might be a chosen one.

As for questions like "why doesn't Qui-Gon just wave his hand and sense Anakin's power?", I'm sure he did, but it was merely a fact - "this person is Force sensitive". It didn't really tell him what he wanted to know, which is whether he should save Anakin, train him, etc. The script explicitly addresses later that the Jedi's senses have been dulled and that they are confused, which they attribute to Dark Side interference - and after a fashion, they're right, of course.

Unless you're a crazy person who equates science with government bureaucracy and "decay and impotence." At which point, that reveals more your feelings about science and religion more than anything else.

I'm not concerned with what you think my posts reveal about me.

[Fabinas]

I do still believe midichlorians deserve a purpose in the whole SW story. Which is the Skywalker family story. The ability to tap to the Force is inherent in this family and that can only mean it is genetical. Anakin passes his genetic Force ability factor (midichlorians) to Luke and Leia, Leia passes it to Ben Solo-Kylo Ren and we still need to determine Rey's place in the family tree.
Although talking strictly genetic, Luke and Leia should have been lesser Force users than Anakin and their offspring even less (since they mated with Force non-sensitive persons, AS FAR AS WE ARE TOLD).
In a galaxy where lasers, light sabers, hyperspace and light speed travel exists, it would be "funny" for this universe's science to not have discovered why some people are able to tap to this mystical power. The narrative of "this Family is strong in the Force" needed a why. The general "Force Sensitive" narrative in other than the movies media needed a "How"
Introducing the midichlorians as the inherent ability of a being to be able to access control of the Force and their count as a measure of this ability doesn't make the Force less mystical or extraordinaire. The midichlorians are NOT the Force. They are just the antennae who allow a being to be able to feel and control it.

Having the Force as a "religion" where everyone, if trained and believing enough can use it, is a bad story, in my honest opinion.

[supertigerlamp]

The major failing of the prequels was the Anakin character. Not JUST HC's performance as the character, but the character itself.

Young Anakin wasn't really entertaining, and bordered on obnoxious at times, but his heart was otherwise in the right place in what he was trying to do. By the time Episode II rolled around Anakin wasn't even really arrogant so much as he was creepy at times with out he leered at Padme, and then there was the complete dismissal of him butchering an entire tribe of Sand People as 'being angry is to be human'.

His arc was less of an arc and more of a Pokemon-esque evolution along predictable lines. He was a self-centered jackass in EII and he became a worse self-centered jackass in EIII. If they had worked to make him easier to relate to, like, and heroic, his fall would have seemed even more tragic, as if it was saying that the dark side is so completely pervasive and tempting that it can tear down even the best of us. Instead it was jerk becomes bigger jerk.

[Ielenia]

There doesn't need to be a scene where Obi-Wan says out loud "Wow, I can't believe we were so stupid as to pick out the Chosen One using a radar gun to measure his power level" for it to be a part of the narrative.

Not sure why you're saying that, considering I never mentioned anything about Obi-Wan saying anything to that effect, at all.

This is what happens in the plot, yes, but the movie is more than just a summary of events that occur in it. The Wikipedia entry for Star Wars contains no quotations in its plot summary, but that does not mean that all dialogue in the film is inessential or irrelevant.

On the same token, all dialogue is not essential and relevant. Midi-chlorians are inessential and irrelevant. They serve no purpose other than give the Force a "more scientific" feel instead of just being "magic". Which, in my opinion, devalues the entire concept.

- - - Updated - - -

As for questions like "why doesn't Qui-Gon just wave his hand and sense Anakin's power?", I'm sure he did, but it was merely a fact - "this person is Force sensitive". It didn't really tell him what he wanted to know, which is whether he should save Anakin, train him, etc. The script explicitly addresses later that the Jedi's senses have been dulled and that they are confused, which they attribute to Dark Side interference - and after a fashion, they're right, of course.

For starters, my point isn't that Qui-Gon Jinn couldn't sense Anakin's connection to the Force. I'm saying is that the script could easily have Qui-Gon Jinn sense the strength of Anakin's connection: "the Force is unusually strong with the Force." And also, unless I'm remembering correctly, Qui-Gon never even sensed Anakin's connection to the Force. He just had a hunch that the boy was Force-sensitive because the boy was, in his words, "too lucky" or something to that effect.

[Mahourai]

Not sure why you're saying that, considering I never mentioned anything about Obi-Wan saying anything to that effect, at all.

You stated that "midi-chlorians are never used again." They don't need to be for the scene to be important.

Obi-Wan's desert hermit robes being retconned as a Jedi's cop uniform is never pointed out even once, but that is also part of the narrative.

Which, in my opinion, devalues the entire concept.

Of course it does. It shows that the Jedi have devalued the moral center of the force into a meter to check. You have repeatedly described the point of the scene and then asked what the point is.

What you really mean to say is not that the scene is inessential or irrelevant, but that it says something you don't find appealing about the Jedi Order and the Force. These are not the same things.

[Ielenia]

You stated that "midi-chlorians are never used again." They don't need to be for the scene to be important.

Obi-Wan's desert hermit robes being retconned as a Jedi's cop uniform is never pointed out even once, but that is also part of the narrative.

Except the scene's reason to exist would have not changed at all if midi-chlorians was never mentioned. That BS was created solely for the purpose of... nothing. Because if the way Jedi sense Force-sensitive people remained the same, the scene could've been like this: "Obi-Wan, can you sense it? That boy has an unusually strong connection to the Force." "Yes, master Jinn. I can sense it too." Bam. No need at all for that BS 'midi-chlorians'.

Of course it does. It shows that the Jedi have devalued the moral center of the force into a meter to check. You have repeatedly described the point of the scene and then asked what the point is.

Except the Jedi didn't devalue it. The script-writers did. Because midi-chlorians exist solely to point to Anakin as a 'prodigy', nothing else. They're not mentioned in the movie again. To claim that "the Jedi have devalued the moral center of the Force", you have to show, within the movie or any other official story, midi-chlorians being used like such. Except, as far as I know, nothing of the sort exists.

What you really mean to say is not that the scene is inessential or irrelevant, but that it says something you don't find appealing about the Jedi Order and the Force. These are not the same things.

It says nothing about the Jedi Order. And what it says about the Force adds nothing of value in the narrative. If midi-chlorians were so important as you claim (since, according to you, it "shows the Jedi have devalued the moral of the Force"), then they'd be mentioned again sometime in the next films. Perhaps with a Sith talking about it, but we have nothing.

[Mahourai]

Except the scene's reason to exist would have not changed at all if midi-chlorians was never mentioned. That BS was created solely for the purpose of... nothing. Because if the way Jedi sense Force-sensitive people remained the same, the scene could've been like this: "Obi-Wan, can you sense it? That boy has an unusually strong connection to the Force." "Yes, master Jinn. I can sense it too." Bam. No need at all for that BS 'midi-chlorians'.

Except that, to quote you, the scene is "ascrib[ing] a "natural" characteristic, something measurable, to an entity that is supernatural". If this doesn't happen, the meaning of the scene changes. You are well aware of this. The Force has "stop[ed] really being 'supernatural'." Your rewrite eliminates this element of the scene. You are well aware the two scenes are different.

Except the Jedi didn't devalue it. The script-writers did.

This is a bizarre response. Why are you separating characters in a film from their dialogue? Yes, Ielenia, "Qui-Gon Jinn" doesn't exist, and is a creation of the team at Lucasfilm, but how on Earth is that relevant to discussing the movie? Imagine analyzing Macbeth by pointing out that the castle isn't real and that Macbeth's dialogue is provided to him by a script.

If midi-chlorians were so important as you claim (since, according to you, it "shows the Jedi have devalued the moral of the Force"), then they'd be mentioned again sometime in the next films. Perhaps with a Sith talking about it, but we have nothing.

Sometimes in movies, scenes are meaningful even if characters don't explicitly talk out loud about their meanings later. This sounds petulant but apparently does in fact need to be explained to you multiple times.

EDIT:

It's like a friend that you believed has always spoken the truth to you, but suddenly you find out said friend told you a lie. Then you start thinking: "what else could my friend be lying about?"

Here is another response you had to that scene. Can you think of any scenes in the Star Wars movies that could be related to this?

[Fabinas]

Just food for thought :

http://www.starwars.com/news/so-what...midi-chlorians

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Midi-chlorian

[Ielenia]

Except that, to quote you, the scene is "ascrib[ing] a "natural" characteristic, something measurable, to an entity that is supernatural". If this doesn't happen, the meaning of the scene changes. You are well aware of this. The Force has "stop[ed] really being 'supernatural'." Your rewrite eliminates this element of the scene. You are well aware the two scenes are different.

No, the meaning of the scene remains unchanged. Because the meaning of the few scenes midi-chlorians are mentioned have one meaning: Anakin Skywalker is the "chosen one" of the prophecy. That is the meaning of those scenes.

This is a bizarre response. Why are you separating characters in a film from their dialogue? Yes, Ielenia, "Qui-Gon Jinn" doesn't exist, and is a creation of the team at Lucasfilm, but how on Earth is that relevant to discussing the movie? Imagine analyzing Macbeth by pointing out that the castle isn't real and that Macbeth's dialogue is provided to him by a script.

I'm not separating. I'm saying is that the script-writers came up with that bullshit of "midi-chlorians" solely for the sake of selling the idea that Anakin is the "chosen one", when the movies already had a perfectly valid way of establishing Anakin's status as "prodigy". At no point we see the Jedi "devaluing" the Force or "the moral center" of the Force. Midi-chlorians are only mentioned when Anakin is concerned. After that, the entire concept of 'midi-chlorians' is completely missing from the rest of the entire trilogy.

Sometimes in movies, scenes are meaningful even if characters don't explicitly talk out loud about their meanings later. This sounds petulant but apparently does in fact need to be explained to you multiple times.

Except the entire concept of "midi-chlorians" is completely, one hundred percent meaningless. It's not like the writers didn't have a perfectly valid way of establishing Anakin as the 'chosen one' of the Force.

Here is another response you had to that scene. Can you think of any scenes in the Star Wars movies that could be related to this?

What's the relevance?

[WeaponizedPillows]

I really liked them. The pod racing was awesome, and spawned a great video game. The light saber battles were way better done. The universe was much better fleshed out.

Hayden Christensen and Anakin's writers were the main thing that hurt the prequels for me. They were mostly great, in my opinion.

[Shadowferal]

The writing was so damn poor even a talented actor couldn't have raised the scenes above mediocre. (props to Macgregor for being able to take it that far)
But Hayden Chistiansen was among the worst actors then...zero passion that should have been on fire for the character that made him Darth Vader. And watching grass grow elicited more emotion than he could have ever have done when one adds the crappy lines and direction he was given.

[Verdugo]

I agree with some of your other points, but not this one. If anything I'd give Samuel L Jackson more to do. Or at least better lines.

He was horribly miscast, role of a wise jedi doesnt suit somone who is at his best playing "bad motherfuckers".

Also: wipeouts.

[cubby]

Episode 1: Yes, it's... It's just awful. The podrace sequence and Darth Maul are the only redeeming features.
Episode 2: It's alrightish. The final fight sequence is strong, Yoda is awesome and we get a LOT less Jar Jar.
Episode 3: Not that bad, really. Easily the best of the trilogy, and the only one that comes close to standing up to the original trilogy. the Mustofa sequences are good, and tbh with the exception of Vader's NNOOOOOOOO there aren't many super cringe moments.

I agree completely with this summary. The biggest problem over all was poor scripting and directing. What worked in 1977 doesn't work in 1990's.

[eschatological]

The podracing part annoys the fuck out of me to no end. It's so clearly "the thing" they wanted to do that they jumped through hoops to set up a plot that didn't even make sense about a bet based on podracing.

[Mormolyce]

Episode III is the worst IMO, though really that's asking what flavour of warm diarrhea you want poured in your eyes.

He was horribly miscast, role of a wise jedi doesnt suit somone who is at his best playing "bad motherfuckers".

Also: wipeouts.

I do think portraying all the Jedi as stoic emotionless bricks was a bad choice across the board, he would've been great as a rogue Jedi obsessed with hunting the Sith or something...

[draynay]

Episode III is the worst IMO, though really that's asking what flavour of warm diarrhea you want poured in your eyes.

Whatever flavor doesn't have "aggressive negotiations" or dislike of sand would be my preference, fucking Attack of the Clones... Plus every line C3PO has in that movie is agony.

[Mormolyce]

Whatever flavor doesn't have "aggressive negotiations" or dislike of sand would be my preference, fucking Attack of the Clones... Plus every line C3PO has in that movie is agony.

On the other hand, Attack of the Clones had Christopher Lee.

Whereas Revenge of the Sith, starting the movie with Christopher Lee already established and ready to go, decides instead to bump him off in the opening scenes because Lucas thought a CGI asthmatic robot would make a better villain.